Ran'jit's strength makes no sense

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Ran'jit's strength now makes sense - he has magical kung fu from a region beyond Norvrandt. This makes me question how he's lived as long as he has though, given the Flood was a century ago. (Maybe that's why he looks kind of haggard; he used magic to extend his lifespan?)

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My initial impression was that Ran'jit's techniques were passed down through the survivors of that non-Norvrandt ("Vrandtic" is the adjective, if I recall) region, as well as their cultures and naming conventions. I believe the description of the A-rank hunt Huracan says it's the familiar his father used, and it's speculated to still be around because Ran'jit's father was turned into a Sin Eater, which means Ran'jit's father was present in Norvrandt after the Flood. So we have kind of an upper bound on that timeline.

However, Ran'jit also implies that he's been broken by seeing several generations of Minfilias die, which makes me wonder how many of these generations there have been, given it has been a century since the Flood of Light. Assuming each Minfilia lived for about fifteen years (and ignoring the horrific implications of that hypothesis), there should be about six generations since the Flood of Light, especially since it's stated that there are "some years" between Minfilias. Which would certainly be enough to emotionally break a man like Ran'jit, but also imply that he's been around for every generation.

So it's entirely possible he's been able to prolong his life and effective combat ability through either magic, or sheer badass-ness.

I still think it's the mustache and eyebrows.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The Warrior of Light has been built up over time, sure, though they're not going to spend the same amount of time building up each and every antagonist we face. All we needed to know was that Ran'jit was a seasoned, veteran combatant and the leader of a powerful army. The logical assumption is that he is a threat and that his fighting style was something that the Warrior of Light had not encountered.

It seems to me that it's more a matter of personal tastes than something the writers have done incorrectly. Even with all the reasoning behind Zenos there were still people who didn't like the idea of their character losing to him. Sure, the writers could have done more with Ran'jit but even if they did, it still wouldn't be enough for some people.

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The thing that still sticks out to me about Ran'jit's strength is that, yes, he certainly has time and experience as strong factors for being as accomplished as he is-- but all in a stagnant world that's on the precipice of collapse. For all that he's seen and done? There would eventually come a point where he's likely seen and faced most of what Norvrandt has to offer in terms of fighting capability. He'd hit a wall.

Meanwhile, we've been fighting adversaries from almost every spectrum of life, from mortal to divine, and have likely seen a great deal of fighting styles and techniques that we ourselves have often come to master. We may lack for time, but in our role as the Warrior of Light? We've probably matched him in experience. So why is unfamiliarity with a fighting style not applied to Ran'jit? Why isn't he somehow set off-kilter due to seeing martial arts and magics developed from an entirely different world?

I don't mind losing a battle here or there, and I can accept that Ran'jit may just be that powerful, but all of the factors that apply to him apply to us.

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Originally Posted by Gerel

The thing that still sticks out to me about Ran'jit's strength is that, yes, he certainly has time and experience as strong factors for being as accomplished as he is-- but all in a stagnant world that's on the precipice of collapse. For all that he's seen and done? There would eventually come a point where he's likely seen and faced most of what Norvrandt has to offer in terms of fighting capability. He'd hit a wall.

Meanwhile, we've been fighting adversaries from almost every spectrum of life, from mortal to divine, and have likely seen a great deal of fighting styles and techniques that we ourselves have often come to master. We may lack for time, but in our role as the Warrior of Light? We've probably matched him in experience. So why is unfamiliarity with a fighting style not applied to Ran'jit? Why isn't he somehow set off-kilter due to seeing martial arts and magics developed from an entirely different world?

I don't mind losing a battle here or there, and I can accept that Ran'jit may just be that powerful, but all of the factors that apply to him apply to us.

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To be fair he wouldn't have hit a wall for quite some time, though. Bear in mind that that game exists in a weird time bubble and so although a lot of time has passed in the real world it hasn't been that long since the Warrior of Light first arrived in Gridania/Ul'dah/Limsa. I don't deny that the Warrior of Light has accomplished a lot but he still doesn't know everything there is to know about battle.

I'd also point out that Sin Eaters come in quite a vast number of varieties, each needing to be dealt with differently. To say nothing of the various other threats present across Norvrandt. In addition, simply being wounded by a Sin Eater is often enough to condemn someone to the unfortunate fate of either turning into one instantly or slowly devolving into one over time.

So I took it as him being a powerful foe by virtue of living and surviving long enough to outlast many others. Much like the Warrior of Light, Ran'jit lost a lot of people he presumably cared for. Friends, family, the various 'Minfilia' girls, comrades and so on.

One might even argue that some of those we face have lost far more than the Warrior of Light and as such something breaks in them that cannot be repaired. Yet they still have that drive to push onwards, further fueling their ability to fight.

That's how I see it, at least.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

To be fair he wouldn't have hit a wall for quite some time, though. Bear in mind that that game exists in a weird time bubble and so although a lot of time has passed in the real world it hasn't been that long since the Warrior of Light first arrived in Gridania/Ul'dah/Limsa. I don't deny that the Warrior of Light has accomplished a lot but he still doesn't know everything there is to know about battle.

I'd also point out that Sin Eaters come in quite a vast number of varieties, each needing to be dealt with differently. To say nothing of the various other threats present across Norvrandt. In addition, simply being wounded by a Sin Eater is often enough to condemn someone to the unfortunate fate of either turning into one instantly or slowly devolving into one over time.

So I took it as him being a powerful foe by virtue of living and surviving long enough to outlast many others. Much like the Warrior of Light, Ran'jit lost a lot of people he presumably cared for. Friends, family, the various 'Minfilia' girls, comrades and so on.

One might even argue that some of those we face have lost far more than the Warrior of Light and as such something breaks in them that cannot be repaired. Yet they still have that drive to push onwards, further fueling their ability to fight.

That's how I see it, at least.

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Does the Warrior of Light know everything about battle? Far from it. There's still always something to learn, something to glean from the world, and that's the point of the Warrior of Light's existence: they're an avatar of Hydaelyn's will for creatures to learn, hear, and think. That's why they continuously rise above the rest and encompass more than their corner of the world. But that's the inherent issue with the First and Norvrandt.

They've lost so much of their culture, history, and even their very world.

Are Sin Eaters a threat? Sure. But they're also creatures of apparent instinct who can be studied rather thoroughly to predict how they'll act. To the point where them -acting differently- is what gets people more than a little worried. Ran'jit has had far more time than most, and eventually, I feel a man who's at the head of the Eulmore military would begin to figure things out from a tactical standpoint.

As for virtue of being powerful by sheer will? I can also accept that. Plenty of people pull through on that explanation, like Thancred. But the Warrior of Light is often portrayed as an empathetic figure who's far more prone to taking on the weight of those they encounter. Can see that much in the Dark Knight storylines. They, personally, may not have lost as much as the rest of the world--but they do experience it keenly. Almost to an obsessive level. They just bury it deep, deep down because they're the "chosen hero" who has to carry the world on their shoulders.

It still doesn't address, though, that Ran'jit's advantages over us could just as easily be flipped around and used on him narratively. Which I think is his ultimate downfall. He's not a freak of nature like Zenos, and I think he would've better suited us as a tactical foil--not an opponent we beat down. They should've emphasized his role as head of Eulmore's military might far, far more.

Considering he's a general of an army, has some interesting techniques we've never seen before, and has seen several reincarnations of Minfilia one can determine he has had lots of experience in combat and has some unusual enhancement of his life expectancy, his strength and speed. He even survived a fall that should've killed him and has a form of true sight, so he's definitely got some kind of supernatural gift, perhaps an empowerment from Lord Vauthry or some kind of ancient practice we haven't been exposed to ourselves that has made him into a super soldier.

Yoshi P and Oda answered it,its related to the martial arts his ppl did at a place that got flooded and also related to his dragon-serpent~
but generally its due to the years of experience he has with constant fighting

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I wonder how much of the complaints about Ran'jit and similar characters stem from some people being bitter that their glassy eyed waifu characters are actually given a run for their money and can't just cut through anything and everything put before them? I found him to be a pretty interesting character - a former hero with a tragic past broken by the bleak fate of the world.

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To be fair, I never wanted my glassy-eyed waifu to instantly be the best at everything she does. I much preferred the FFXI paradigm, in which my character was involved in some incredible things, and certainly talented, but at the end of the day was just another adventurer among many, and treated as such.

I've come to terms with the fact that Lineage is a paragon among paragons, though, after having it beaten into me for so many years. It's thoroughly baked into the game, and there's not much point in complaining about it now. However, this means that when an exception occurs, like Zenos or Ran'jit, I ask WHY. It's not an unreasonable question to ask. What makes these challenges so exceptional, after having successfully faced what we have?

Personally, I'm satisfied with Ran'jit's explanation. He's a thoroughly seasoned warrior utilizing an esoteric fighting style unfamiliar to us. It begs the question as to why we've not run into similar seasoned warriors on the Source (None interested in facing us? Not even for coin, hired by the Garleans?), but it makes sense that a century of experience could give him an unexpected edge. Zenos's overwhelming strength is a bit less palatable. He's pretty much that strong just because of natural talent, honed by sociopathy and narcissism.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

With Ran'jit I just... didn't feel it.He just kept beating us and coming back and beating us again to the point where it was almost annoying, like a hound dog just chasing us, and the whole time he's got me wondering how? How's he doing it? What technique is he using, what power does he have that we don't know about? And then. Nothing. He's just an ordinary (well trained and experienced) guy, and we kill him in a relatively short and easy 1 on 1 battle because... reasons, I guess.

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To be fair, we only fight Ran'jit three times (once as Thancred), and in those there times, he only beats us once. Thancred's is a narrow victory, and WoL's final bout is decisive. It's why the "secret trick that only works once" theory some have holds up.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

So it's entirely possible he's been able to prolong his life and effective combat ability through either magic, or sheer badass-ness.

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I think the timeline works out, all right. If we assume that Ran'jit is 120 now (a remarkable lifespan, but not outrageous) and that he was talented beyond his years at 20, he may have been assigned to work with the first Oracle of Light when she appeared. When she passed, and a new Oracle appeared, he may have been assigned to her by default due to his previous experience working with an Oracle. And so on, over time becoming the Oracle "subject matter expert", as it were.

I don't have a problem with Ran'jit or Zenos beating us. I don't even have an issue with Ran'jit just beating us because he's that well trained and badass.

I have an issue with how things resolve. What changes between our second and third fight with Zenos? Nothing except our level number arbitrarily went up. What I don't like is the vague 'power level' shoenen vertical story power progression.

We didn't overcome some great trial to beat Zenos/Ran'jit. We didn't do some training to coutner their style or find some sort of weakness to exploit. We just keep doing our thing, and then when the script says it's time to beat them, we beat them.

The other issue I have with it is how the initial battles themselves play out. An easy as hell boss fight with easy mechanics chipping away at an over inflated health bar with a pre scripted 'you lose' moment does not sell a character as intimidating. It makes them feel cheap and annoying.

It would play better if the fights were actually hard, keeping us on edge, and making us scramble just to try and survive as long as we can. SOmething more like the chapter 3 end boss of Type 0.

I don't care that every now and then we lose. I care that we get an easy scripted boss fight, lose because the story says so, keep doing our normal thing, and then magically win when the story says it's time for us to win.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Personally, I'm satisfied with Ran'jit's explanation. He's a thoroughly seasoned warrior utilizing an esoteric fighting style unfamiliar to us. It begs the question as to why we've not run into similar seasoned warriors on the Source (None interested in facing us? Not even for coin, hired by the Garleans?), but it makes sense that a century of experience could give him an unexpected edge. Zenos's overwhelming strength is a bit less palatable. He's pretty much that strong just because of natural talent, honed by sociopathy and narcissism.

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I had wondered that myself. Where is the Source's reflection of Ran'jit? Most of the recognizable alternate selves we've seen of people so far were actually pretty similar to their Source counterparts, so one would think we would know if we'd run into (or run afoul of) him. Then again, the Source had no Sin Eaters to fight. Perhaps he only achieved such great mastery of his style due to fighting countless battles against blatantly inhuman foes, in which case it would make sense for his counterpart on the Source to never attain the vast strength and longevity. It seems equally possible that his unique martial art did not exist at all on the Source. Were this the case, well, its version of Ran'jit could have been an extremely unremarkable man that is long since gone.

And Zenos... yeah. Zenos is blandness in motion. I'm really hoping they at least come out with some excuse about how he was the product of some horrible science experiment or something. He already comes off like an expy of Sephiroth in some ways. Might as well just go whole hog at this point, no?