About the Emperor [Major Spoilers for 4.4]

Gaius wants a reofrmation of the empire not a dissolution.
He still believes in a just reing of the empire, which is what his character has been built since 2.0. He doesn't wow to end the empire when he saw the use of black rose, he laments the fact that their action will make them lose provinces.
Which means that once the Ascians are purged from the empire he fully intends to return. Just like he wanted to use the eorzea campaign to further his own agenda whichever it was.

As for Varis, the whole point of his resistance being passive is to show the cracks in the empire and the fact that he is under an unwilling yoke. He still remains the emperor, which should mean something since nobody knows about the ascian yoke over him, when the times comes. I repeat, he can't do anything now and he knows it, he's biding time, the whole point was to set up a theme for 5.0, which I hope will be touched or all the death stares, the gasp and the teeth clenched will be for naught.

I don't get why we are comparing Solus to either Ghestal or Kefka now, since he literally had only 1 scene in-game and besides acting like Ardyn he didn't really shown much but perhaps being a cartoonish villain, while Kefka is a nihilist and Gesthal a power-hungry man.
In all seriousness if you believe that the empire as a whole is completely evil I can't agree with you. It means that we have to disregard ppl that have been shown to not being scums and completely ignore ppl like Maxima the wanted the treaty to go and this is disrespectful
In fact I made more than 2 examples and I also spoke of the populares but w/e

Gaius is an interesting character because we don't know the specifics of what he wants for the Empire right now. We do know he thinks the Empire isn't doing a good job by losing so many territories, but given how they are losing their territories (Zenos is bored) that's a valid problem to have with the Empire. Anyone with any sense of strategy would think that.

What we do know, and have known about him for a long time, is that he puts a lot of stress on the idea of ruling well. From how he talks about Eorzea, it sounds like he doesn't want to conquer them just for the sake of conquering them, but because their current governments aren't doing a good job at it. And at the beginning of 1.0, that's not necessarily a wrong way of viewing the situation. A big chunk of the early part of 1.0's MSQ is focused on the starting city-states and all of them have governmental issues that are not portrayed in a positive light. And there's the whole problem of Eorzea not knowing about eikons and having a way to deal with them. By the time 2.0 ends (before the patches start), a lot of those problems have either dealt with or are less of an issue. And Eorzea's leadership has a very good idea of the type of threat both eikons and the Ascians present.

So I can see Gaius thinking that by the end of 2.0 that Eorzea is being ruled well enough that he doesn't have to conquer them to provide that. Meanwhile, he hasn't had any contact with the Empire since before the War of Succession came to a head. So who knows what state Isabard is in by this point. Given how many Ascians he's run into by the time we see him in 4.3, it's very likely Isabard is dealing with much more Ascian Manipulation then Eorzea did. So in his mind, he's probably got every reason to be there.

The reason I bring up Gaius' idea of "ruling well" (no matter how hypocritical it is) is because Gaius is the only Garlean-in-power that I can remember talking about that concept. I don't think we've ever heard Varis talk about it. Varis seems to be more concerned with saving the planet in any way possible and it almost seems like that is a chore for him. And that goes all the way back to his introduction in 3.0 which might be before he found out the truth about Solus. Gaius at least cares about how he goes about doing things. We know he has limits, even if they aren't as limiting as most people want them to be. It also seems that neither stopping the eikons or stopping the Ascians is something Gaius feels overly burdened by. I get the feeling he's doing what he wants to do in 4.3 if just to prove he isn't being manipulated by the Ascians anymore.

Now that I think about it, I could see Varis being jealous of Gaius. Varis hates the Ascians, but can't do anything overt about it. Meanwhile, Gaius has managed to get out from under Ascian manipulation and has turned the fight back on them.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

If they wanted to make the Garlemand empire an evil organization completely they wouldn't have brought back Gaius nor made Varis reluctant in 4.4 stinger.

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An organisation or government is not much less evil just because they have morally grey characters in it. I mean Gaius was still someone that would have conquered another country and had believed in the right that you should rule if you are stronger. Heck he wanted to use the Ultima weapon as a game changer to force the alliance into giving up. He is thankfully not willing to do everything to conquer a country and might have changed even more after the betrayal from Lahabrea but he was still a morally grey (and interesting) character. Varis is a wild card. Depending on how SE wants to write him he can either become an ally or he will still be an enemy. And seeing how he wanted to use genocide to destroy the primals forever (and probably the complete destruction of any culture or religion to stop anyone from summoning them again) then he still quite morally grey (I would even go and say morally black) and not necessary a good way to show the better sides of Garlemald.

I mean just because we had people in our own history that went against their dictator (as an example) does not mean that the rule itself was not evil. And we will see how certain characters truly stand in the coming expansion.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

*snip*

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Maxima is an example of a General Leo. A good person who is loyal to the Empire and has faith that they're ultimately doing the right thing. The fact that he is a member of the Empire doesn't make the Empire less evil - it makes Maxima misguided for believing in it, just as Leo's loyalty to Gestahl turned out to be misguided.

As for Solus having just one scene, that's not entirely true. Solus has quite a bit of history, and we learn bits and pieces of it over the course of the game. He was a charismatic leader, and popular with his people, just as Gestahl was. While a ruthless warmonger, he was apparently a reasonable authority figure, and even a patron of the arts. Gestahl was much the same way; when the Espers began to run amok, he sued for peace and offered to make amends for his nation's wrongdoings, appearing to put concern for his nation over his personal ambitions. Gestahl's contrition turned out to be a lie - his offer of peace was a front to gather the marauding Espers in one place to be easily slaughtered. Likewise, Solus claimed to want to bring order to the world when his true goal was just the opposite.

And Gaius? It may be true he's not (knowingly) in opposition to the Empire, but my point is that he's working against the Empire anyway. The problem is that Gaius's vision of what the Empire should be differs from Solus's. Solus's empire - the Evil Empire - is an engine for spreading chaos and misery for the purpose of ushering in a Calamity. Gaius's empire is one of strength and personal integrity, designed to allow a strong leader to save the weak of will from their own weakness by way of authority and firm command. The Empire Gaius is loyal to is NOT the Empire Solus created (even if Gaius thinks it is). In fact, even before we learned Solus was an Ascian, the Empire Gaius believed in was an ideal that didn't really match the reality. Gaius believed that non-Garleans such as Rhitatyn and Fodola could prosper under Garlean rule, so long as they embodied Garlean ideals and worked earnestly and hard. Only under his command, was that ideal the truth - once he was out of the picture, the best Fordola could accomplish was to keep the mockery of her Garlean "peers" at low volume. Gaius, too, was a General Leo, placing his faith in a system that was, ultimately, a lie.

I have a legitimate question, why ppl have ignored the populares, Reagula, Maxima or that guy that was the governor of Ala Ghiri and the governors that allegedly are treating their subjets with dignity when criticising what I said?

Also the populares were the force of mayority till the 4.3 summoning can't say they were few.

@lineage: I mean in-game scene in person. Rumors and stories are just that, the person in the flesh tells much more, especially since that lore drop he had. And Gaius is working for the empire he believes in. What the Garleans believed in =/= What Solus believes in

Frankly the difference between Gaius and Zenos as a governor are proof enough that Governors have complete authoruity over their provinces and no province has the same form of rule
The truth is we really know nothing of the empire, but of Ala mhigo, Doma and Dalmasca. Doma is another anomaly because they left Kaien in charge, would be good to know what kind of rule happened there since that is quite anomaly

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I have a legitimate question, why ppl have ignored the populares, Reagula, Maxima or that guy that was the governor of Ala Ghiri and the governors that allegedly are treating their subjets with dignity when criticising what I said?

Also the populares were the force of mayority till the 4.3 summoning can't say they were few.

@lineage: I mean in-game scene in person. Rumors and stories are just that, the person in the flesh tells much more, especially since that lore drop he had. And Gaius is working for the empire he believes in. What the Garleans believed in =/= What Solus believes in

Frankly the difference between Gaius and Zenos as a governor are proof enough that Governors have complete authoruity over their provinces and no province has the same form of rule
The truth is we really know nothing of the empire, but of Ala mhigo, Doma and Dalmasca. Doma is another anomaly because they left Kaien in charge, would be good to know what kind of rule happened there since that is quite anomaly

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Nobody is saying there aren't good people in the empire. But they're not in charge of the empire. It doesn't matter if the Populares were against the Meteor Project or don't know that the Ascians are pulling the strings. The empire is not evil down to the last man, but as an organization the empire is a tool of chaos and evil, and even Varis is not truly in control of it. He's emperor in name but his scene with Solus makes it clear he's not actually the one in control of the situation.

There are people within the empire who want to reform it, and even more that would if they knew the truth, but the organization itself is currently a tool of evil being used by the ascians to cause calamities. They already brought about one and are working towards more.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I have a legitimate question, why ppl have ignored the populares, Reagula, Maxima or that guy that was the governor of Ala Ghiri and the governors that allegedly are treating their subjets with dignity when criticising what I said?

Also the populares were the force of mayority till the 4.3 summoning can't say they were few.

@lineage: I mean in-game scene in person. Rumors and stories are just that, the person in the flesh tells much more, especially since that lore drop he had. And Gaius is working for the empire he believes in. What the Garleans believed in =/= What Solus believes in

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Because we are not discussing the actions of individuals but the actions of an organisation. An organisation that was only created to sow chaos, an organisation that used its peoples anger and ego to create wars around the world that killed a huge mass of people, made the live in Eorzea even worse by nearly destroying it with a moon, that razes cities to the ground and that even managed to create a calamity which completely destroyed a shard. (And who knows how many living beings there) An organisation that was ruled to 99,9% of the time by an Ascian that wanted chaos and was using it for their evil plans. And that now have a ruler that was fine with mass killing beast tribes if it solves a problem, even though he knew that others were also looking for a solution. A new ruler that might be turning into an ally or might not.

It does not matter if they are some people in it if we talk about the empire itself. And lets not forget that Regula was still quite fine to kill our beast tribes friends at Varis order, that he was still ready to shot down our ship which would have killed us and that only worked together to solve a problem that he could not solve in another way. He also had some good sides to him but we should not forget that he was also ready to kill and also still called us a savages. His early death was sadly something that stopped him from being a deeper character. It would have been nice to see him react to this lie and where his loyalities would have lied.

Again good people exist in any regime, in any empires of the world and history. But that does not change the fact that the head or the system itself is bad/evil. And that most of the time a change in minds and government is needed to truly change it to something better. A place where people with differen opinions like Maxima wont be put on a hit list to be murdered. Because no matter how much you are against something, in such bad empires you have no chance to change anything because you will either just be killed or not be heard at all.

The populares are also not that powerful if they only now got their voices heard by Varis and got them pushed down quite fast again with the primal summoning. Its sounds more like a smaller group that has been working for more peace for quite some time but such a group has no chance at all if you are ruled by a dictator. Garlemald is seemingly not like Ishgard where Aymeric is the spokesperson but needs permission from the board of the elected people to do something. And if the two political groups can take down Varis then he seemingly has still enough followers.

About the provinces: A good ruler that wants to have provinces without any rebellion should make sure that they are run by the right people. Instead of just looking away or not caring they should take down any province leader that is making the situation worse. Ala Mhigo under Zenos and Doma under Yotsuyu was quite showing how to not do it. Not only was it bad for earning money (a functional saltery could benefit both sides quite well) but taking away the young ones in a lot of villages and only leaving the old and weak would make sure that they wont surivive long or that the country will break down and be not worth anything. I was always surprised how incompetent they looked because it was not making much sense. Now it does: Because by threating them that badly, especially in Ala Mhigo, maybe Solus has hoped for more primal summonings. Which in turn would show the Garleans that they are "right". But its defintely not a good way to rule an empire at all. Such empires wont last long simply because of all the rebellions that would pop up. An emporer need to trust the people that they sent there but they cant turn a blind eye afterwards. They should care how they are doing there and take them out if its necessary. Solus did not do it (for obvious reasons) and Varis didnt either.

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To give this a more rl example: (without a government this time)

You have an organisation that from an outside view wants to help certain countries in the world, that gives them jobs and builts things for them. People do believe that they are working for something good and it gets praise and support. Suddenly the truth comes out. The bosses of this organisation did not do this to help the people. They did it to find oil and because those people there are poor they use them as cheap workers, maybe even with horrible working conditions. All the "good deeds" they did were to gain support from others, so that this was paid and to get the people there to believe in them. But it was all a lie.

Would you say that the organisation itself, that from the very start only existed for that reason, is not bad? Or would you say while hearing about this story on the radio that these are the worst and that the leaders of it should be dealt with and the organisation stopped?

(I know that this is a complete constructed example, I wanted to avoid using any real ones)

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Originally Posted by Alleo

It does not matter if they are some people in it if we talk about the empire itself. And lets not forget that Regula was still quite fine to kill our beast tribes friends at Varis order, that he was still ready to shot down our ship which would have killed us and that only worked together to solve a problem that he could not solve in another way. He also had some good sides to him but we should not forget that he was also ready to kill and also still called us a savages. His early death was saddly something that stopped him from being a deeper character. It would have been nice to see him react to this lie and where his loyalities would have lied.

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Speaking of Hydrus, in retrospect part of me wonders if Elidibus wanted him out of the way because he was loyal to Varis personally. That masked kid he sent to work with us DID try to spring a trap for Hydrus though it wasn't successful, and Varis' position would be stronger with Hydrus around and loyal to him. His death in HW leaves Varis without an asset he'd find very useful if he ends up working against the Ascians.

Probably just coincidence.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Speaking of Hydrus, in retrospect part of me wonders if Elidibus wanted him out of the way because he was loyal to Varis personally. That masked kid he sent to work with us DID try to spring a trap for Hydrus though it wasn't successful, and Varis' position would be stronger with Hydrus around and loyal to him. His death in HW leaves Varis without an asset he'd find very useful if he ends up working against the Ascians.

Probably just coincidence.

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I am not really sure he would have planned that. Regula only got stuck there because of Ysayle and thus might have needed to ally with us thanks to that. Also didnt that kid (I never remember is name x)) try to stop the Garleans from freeing the triade? I mean it could be all a masterplan to get rid of him but I doubt that even Elidibus would have some much insight. Also at that time Lahabrea was still alive, thus Solus was not back and seemingly Varis was still on track with his plan (thus no annoyance to Elidibus). I would even dare to say that maybe Regulas death was not great for Elidibus because having someone deeply loyal with someone can also be used for quite some bad stuff. Varis only doubted in this new patch (which seems to surprise and annoy Elidibus a bit) thus he should have still been an important puppet in Elidibus plan at that time and if the emporer follows his lead then Regula would also follow and maybe do even something drastic to save him at some time.

But sadly all of this will always remain in the realm of pure speculation because he got killed way too fast imo.

If the populares were not a big group they would've never won the empire attentionm, the fact that they lost the support of the ppl it means that there are 3 groups in Garlemand.
Optimates, Populares and commonfolk, whose support changes depending on their emotions on the subject.
They are important.
Also you are discussing the actions of individuals when speaking of the empire, because you are talking about Solus idea and Nael idea of the empire as a way to condemn the empire, why are you allowed to do that?I already said is not the correct way to represent the empire as a whole. Besides an ascian that was using the empire for evil plans you say? I'm sorry what kind of argument is that? We don't even know exactly if Zodiark is evil nor if Hydaelyn is good. Aren't you presuming much? We are just guessing, what we know is that if they die we all die

@Bright-flower
WIth Elidubus? I'm ready to say that it wasn't a coincidence nor the fact that he gave the eyes to Ilberd leading to the summoning of Shinryu and then to Zenos' death.
If you think about it it was just so strange that just after Zenos' died he was ready to take over the body and reappear in the capital, the timing is just too good and completely in the modus operandi of Elidubus.
I mean in 2 events both the emperor's son and his most closed ally were killed off too good for it to be a mere coincidence