How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

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Originally Posted by Arrius

We talk about regular runs in trials and dungeons, not the top raiding. Runs where people don't use aggro dumps or Diversion. Runs where people suck evading telegraphs.

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That's not casual content. That's just rudely negligent or encumbered play.

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Runs where I use Clemency on myself in tank stance while the White Mage/AST can continue to nuke with Holy/Gravity, since my 110 potency spin attack is nothing compared to that.

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That's just optimal. You'd need HG (or other cooldowns sufficient to require no healing) and a NIN in a short burst of AoE to outperform that option with SwO-TE spam.

But Paladin is the outlier in AoE. Both other tanks are hamstrung in their AoE by using tank stance. DRK without tank stance can spam 250 potency per GCD for as long as Del-BW will take him when fighting 12+ mobs, and the sure mana gains that allows can outsustain its tank form via DA-AD. The point still stands: one should be ready to drop tank stance when it is effective to do so (which is most, but not all, of the time). Else they risk making things harder on the party.

I can tell you're not holding your party back at all due to SwO/ShO usage, but as a guideline, seeing as not all tanks will be PLDs, I have to agree with Melichoir's advice, especially as it was posed in reply to "being uncomfortable with stance-dancing". That excuse, inherently, should be transient. One might not comfortable with it... yet. And it's better for one to stay alive for that first normal raid than to get one-shot and let the lead DPS be taken out, too, in the moments thereafter. But, anything more definitive than "yet" is intentionally siphoning effort from one's party to diminish what's immediately and visibly required of oneself (the MT).

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Originally Posted by Jandor

So long as it's private and for just your character it wouldn't be, in fact it would probably serve to improve the general populations play quite significantly. As a tank or healer it's very obvious how well you're doing at your primary function, as a damage dealer... not so much.

Edit: although maybe Shurrikhan has a point about personal parsers and hiding the results from the rest of the party. /thinking.

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Again, I think any well-representative information added would be an improvement. I just feel like the less you force conflicts that needn't occur (e.g. "screenshots links to Discord page within the next 10 seconds, or I start kicking") just to veil conflicts that probably should be addressed early on (e.g. "You really should know how to handle basic mechanics and perform your rotation despite mild movement before even attempting this fight..."), the more toxicity you actually see and--more importantly--feel among party interactions and the perceived playerbase as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Not a good example. They aren't necessarily bad, just maybe perhaps they more comfortable in staying in that stance instead of dancing between them. And I rather give the healer more wiggle room to possibly DPS and save the healing for DPS roles that fail mechanics, than me (a PLD) do a spec more damage.

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First, it isn't simply a spec. If you remained in tank stance for the duration of a raid/trial, you'll loss upwards of 2,000+ DPS. Second, you giving the healing more wiggle room to DPS is still a rDPS loss overall. Unless it's an aoe, tanks loss far more by going into tank stance than a healer will ever gain. Put it this way, it's actually less of a damage loss for Samurai or Monk to use Merciful Eye/Pacification than forcing a tank back into tank stance and using an aggro combo. That's how bad the damage loss is.

As for DPS not using Diversion, well... they make good CDs >.>

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Originally Posted by Nyvara

Let me set this right here: Yoshi-P's Official Statement - In-Game Parser https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ingame_parser/

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If this is his official stance, he's incredibly shortsighted. A single incident where truly awful people sexual harassed the host, not simply mocked her damage numbers, is what makes parsing bad? This is simply scapegoating the tool with an extreme example.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

- Heavily pursue any party finder with "Only XXX parser and must be active not hide or kick"..

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This defeats the entire purpose of a parse. Bad players aren't going to opt into a feature they know will highlight their poor performance. They'll simply hide... which means this system is objectively worse than just using ACT. If a group of people want a speed kill, thus advertise 90% or higher, what makes you entitled to join their party? They aren't being rude, they simply have a set parameter you don't meet yet. It's little different than people who restrict by ilvl. You're essentially saying people are obligated to help you clear simply because you want to. There is nothing immature about setting specific standards. If you dislike said requirements, make your own PF.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

What's to stop people from using the parsing in places like the Leveling Roulette? I mean, if we wipe on a boss, am I going to be told I wasn't DPSing enough as a healer? Or maybe I'm trying to learn how to play DRG in the lowbie levels and I'll get berated for not doing good DPS?

I don't want that crap in my FFXIV.

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The only thing I will mention in a roulette is to AoE large pulls. I certainly don't need a parse to notice that.

I mean... this is what we have to deal with without an in game parser...and you know this griefer has ACT. Imagine how scathing this would be if an in game parser was added, and now nothing is holding him back. Not only can he be a dick, but he can be a dick, and post numbers. For context, the griefer died to ignoring mechanics on Burn's first boss. White mage died trying to slow res him, and got clipped by AoE in process. He was calling for me to die, so we can reset. I didn't, cause boss was near dead, and I thought I had a chance, could use his long AoE casts to heal up with souleater. Got him down to from 5% to 2%, with him trolling me all the while.

I'd rather not give him an in game parser, so he can harass with numbers legitimately as well.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

I mean... this is what we have to deal with without an in game parser...and you know this griefer has ACT. Imagine how scathing this would be if an in game parser was added, and now nothing is holding him back. Not only can he be a dick, but he can be a dick, and post numbers. For context, the griefer died to ignoring mechanics on Burn's first boss. White mage died trying to slow res him, and got clipped by AoE in process. He was calling for me to die, so we can reset. I didn't, cause boss was near dead, and I thought I had a chance, could use his long AoE casts to heal up with souleater. Got him down to from 5% to 2%, with him trolling me all the while.

I'd rather not give him an in game parser, so he can harass with numbers legitimately as well.

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In that scenario: Reported

In a scenario where he uses a parser to still behave like that: reported

End result's the same: SE does not tolerate harassment in any shape or form. And since this would be their own parser, they'd be even more stringent with it. I don't know where people get the idea that if SE drops a parser in the game, they'll suddenly turn a blind eye to bad behavior...

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

In that scenario: Reported

In a scenario where he uses a parser to still behave like that: reported

End result's the same: SE does not tolerate harassment in any shape or form. And since this would be their own parser, they'd be even more stringent with it. I don't know where people get the idea that if SE drops a parser in the game, they'll suddenly turn a blind eye to bad behavior...

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Because they already turn a blind eye to bad behavior? I mean I can't recall one report I've made that actually got someone reprimanded for being a dick. Clearly, I can't officially tell unless I notice them not log on for a couple days (and I do my best to check), but I'm fairly certain all they get - if they get anything at all is a slap on the wrist, and SE saying 'I don't like you behaving like that, but I do like your wallet. So, don't do it again.'

I mean, I get it parsers are a way of life for the elite of the elite. I actually like SE's 'don't ask don't tell' stance on third party parsers. Let the number obsessed have their numbers, if it makes them happy. I just can't fucking stand people that want to be a dick about it openly.

I originally started neutral to the idea of an ingame parser, I didn't really care one way or the other.
I just try and do the best I can when I play...


But, over time, hearing the debates on both sides of the parser discussion...
I found that the arguments of the anti-parser people just seemed nonsensical.

They converted me to be pro-parser.





There is a problem of obfuscating data in this game...
They refuse to put in a way for people to see how well they're actually performing, but continually put in requirements on that performance in the form of DPS checks.

That just seems monumentally silly.


I can't see how people having the objective information available to them, which would allow them to help the people underperforming, is a bad thing.





Harassment over a parser is a non issue, because that's already against the terms of service for the game.
Adding a tool doesn't change that fact.

Perhaps the gm's may have to look into reports of parser harassment...
But that's their job in the first place!
They should be willing to do that... (Or find another form of employment, if they don't want to do what their job requires)

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

I mean... this is what we have to deal with without an in game parser...and you know this griefer has ACT. Imagine how scathing this would be if an in game parser was added, and now nothing is holding him back. Not only can he be a dick, but he can be a dick, and post numbers. For context, the griefer died to ignoring mechanics on Burn's first boss. White mage died trying to slow res him, and got clipped by AoE in process. He was calling for me to die, so we can reset. I didn't, cause boss was near dead, and I thought I had a chance, could use his long AoE casts to heal up with souleater. Got him down to from 5% to 2%, with him trolling me all the while.

I'd rather not give him an in game parser, so he can harass with numbers legitimately as well.

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And how would that harassment change?

Without (official) parsers:

"Dude, you know you're bad, right? And you should feel bad. Please put in some effort so you're not inconveniencing everyone else."
"Hey, I *was* trying, man."
"Hardly felt like it. Your threat was *really* low even without using Diversion."
"Uhh, maybe because I died. You dropped that freeze AoE on me, remember?"
"No, I didn't. And it was low even before that. And the Bard half his aggro, twice, after I rezzed you, and you still never got close to catching up."
"Whatever man."
"Whatever? Your rotation must be ****."
"And?"
"Learn your class. Before you queue into stuff. You've had 70 levels to learn it, so quit procrastinating."
"Dude, I know my class. Why don't you play your own?"
"Mate, I play mine and yours and all the others. And a lot better than you do. Probably most people can say as much."
"Prove it. I'm waiting with a GM ticket."
"I'm not about to get into that. Just.... please... learn your damn class."

With parsers:

"Dude, you know you're bad, right?"
"I mean, I have the same data you do, so... sure?"
"Please put in some effort so you're not inconveniencing everyone else?"
"Hey, I *was* trying, man."
"You shouldn't be getting such low numbers in that case... Your rotation has to be seriously off."
"And I'm working on it. But it's hard for me to open with my CDs still on... CD, from the AoE pull before boss."
"You've got other ways to ramp up quickly than PB, man."
"K, but it's still confusing for me. My damage is all over the place. I can't do anything with what's completely random based on the run."
"Look, just... look at your toolkit and breakpoints. The rest of us are making do just fine. You've got Form Shift and Riddle of Wind. Use em. If you can't get used to it in dungeons, pretend your cooldowns aren't ready yet when punching a dummy and check your numbers that way..."
"Yeah, screw you too, man."
"Screw you too."
[Message blocked.]

Tbh, people tend to be more dogged when there's a chance for ambiguity, either in the verity of their claim or in the target's knowing its "truth". All else being the same, people are less likely to start a conversation, berating or merely critical, with someone they can tell is underperforming by choice. Whether they suck themselves into harassment thereafter or not is probably much the same, but at least the frequency is reduced a bit. And let's not forget we already have parsers, and anyone likely to go off on an underperformer as enabled solely by a metric making detection more convenient is already going to be doing so.

That's not to say you can't have aggressors without parsers. Not remotely. I had someone go off for my rotational choices as Monk despite his being outperformed by every member of our 3-of-4 roulette premade (yes, the tank and healer, too).

Actually, every player who's ever gone off at me or a friend in my party has done so from... not a great standing. When a new healer thought he had screwed up and I said we simply didn't have the damage to do the pull (as evidenced by the fact that nothing was even half dead by the time I'd exhausted every single CD) and I shouldn't have bit off so much--that he was doing great and I just need to stop clinging to how I run with friends--the two dps bffs proceeded to harass me more than fight for the remainder of the run. And then for the ~20 minutes after the run until I blocked them.

I've yet to see numbers come up even in critical speech outside of raids. Where it's come up, it's either been about mechanics, complete lack of AoE skill usage in AoE situations, lack of external toolkit usage (Tactician, Refresh, Goad), or has gone so far as to mention exactly what's wrong whilst offering advice.

"Hey. How am I doing, if anyone's got a parser?" on the other hand? At least a dozen times. Usually each really friendly runs. Information and responsibility =/= toxicity. If anything... it tends to foster community. Just, a community that prides itself on helpfulness rather than the right to burden others (because their 1/n portion of the composition must surely be worth the rights of all n combined).

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

I don't know where people get the idea that if SE drops a parser in the game, they'll suddenly turn a blind eye to bad behavior...

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Because SE often do not take a report seriously unless you are the person who was targeted with the bad behaviour. They don't do much of anything if you were merely an observer. I have reported nasty behaviour before and was basically told that because it wasn't directed at me they can't do anything.

A lot of people don't realise they can report bad behaviour, they don't know how to, or they feel so awful afterwards they just give up on any justice. Given SE don't take observer reports seriously for their official content, likely the same would be applied if the game got its own parser. Which would mean that if you happen to never be a target of parser related harassment but see it happen all the time...you can do nothing about it except for advise the victim to report it and hope that they do.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Because SE often do not take a report seriously unless you are the person who was targeted with the bad behaviour. They don't do much of anything if you were merely an observer. I have reported nasty behaviour before and was basically told that because it wasn't directed at me they can't do anything.

A lot of people don't realise they can report bad behaviour, they don't know how to, or they feel so awful afterwards they just give up on any justice. Given SE don't take observer reports seriously for their official content, likely the same would be applied if the game got its own parser. Which would mean that if you happen to never be a target of parser related harassment but see it happen all the time...you can do nothing about it except for advise the victim to report it and hope that they do.

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That's exactly how harassment tickets should be handled, though. You're not a hall monitor, so encourage people to file a harassment ticket but it's not your business to be offended on someone else's behalf.