Difficulty of normal content.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

What a mean-spirited thread this has become!

Okay, so the OP committed the cardinal sin of both saying that they find the new content difficult AND expressing the opinion that SE should review that. A demonstrably unpopular opinion that has prompted 40 pages of aggressive replies from players who don't seem able to make a point without resorting to passive-aggression and insults.

I mean, I realise that everyone who took offense at the OP for posting such an unforgivable thread is desperate to put the point across that they disagree through fear that SE might actually listen, but I think the point has been made now! Forty pages of aggression and insults, and a damn YouTube video mocking the OP, pretty much made the point. It's just getting ridiculous now!

I mean, these forums have never exactly been sunshine and daisies but when did it become this toxic?!

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To me this reads as another problem with FF over people not knowing how to deal with conflict. I haven't found any of these spectucularly rude or toxic. It's just people arguing over something they disagree with.

this is better than anything i could ever write

To everybody moaning about the difficulty here, how the heck did you get past Zodiark or Hydaelyn? Or, if you started when Stormblood came out, Shinryu? Or Tsukuyomi? Or the last battle with Elidibus? Those fights weren't easy. They threw a lot at you, because at that point you were a long way into the game and the developers at that point expect you to know what you're doing, or at the very least know enough to be able to survive. New stuff or combined mechanics shouldn't be enough to make your head spin.

I'm going to say this in the most respectful way possible, but because of posts like OP, SE HAS listened before and HAS dumbed down the content. The reality is, the new raids being hard is not a community-wide opinion, because they are not difficult. Complacency is literally what has caused so many to leave this game. Sure, we have ultimates and savage, but OP has not done savage or ultimate from the looks of it, because the clear jump of difficulty from normal raids to Savage/Ultimate is...I mean do I need to explain this?

The entitlement that "I should be able to do everything and if it is too hard they need to change it because I CANNOT DO IT" is bratty and quite honestly toxic in itself. I'm sorry but not everything is for everybody, not every job should be able to be played by everybody, not all raids, normal or savage, should be completed by everybody, especially those who do not care in the slightest to learn and progress to clear. If this trend continues and SE makes changes, it will damage the game. In my honest opinion, SE needs to be a bit more harsh on listening to casual players, because listening to players who DO NOT play the game in its entirety, or care to learn and work towards playing the game better, is a problem. SE needs to listen to the midcore/hardcore crowd, and work their way down. Because I think people think that "new things" means "hard", when, if OP has been playing for so long, they would see how many recycled mechanics we got in DT, and how it is just a new flare on old stuff. IDK how one can claim to have played since Stormblood, and think this is harder? Like...come on. Stormblood had some hands, especially in the trials which I think a few were harder on normal than the current normal raid tier.

This unfair to the community as a whole, and while this thread could be viewed as "toxic", I think its a conversation that needs to happen, and not everybody is going to like what they read/hear, but the reality is they need to hear it, and either get good (I mean this in the most respectful way), or don't play an MMO that has battle content, that is the honest to god truth.

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Originally Posted by mcineh

You should really head over to WoW. They love super toxic people.

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You should stop sheltering lazy people who don't want to bother on even trying to learn a new mechanic. You don't think people like OP are toxic? They literally confessed grieving the fight by staying dead on the ground. Stop trying to throw the word "toxic" at people who tell you to get a good a the game.

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Originally Posted by Kiurt

I do agree that some comments were a bit over the line.

But so was OP on some of his answers, but not the same "toxicity" that people were in their comments.

To be honest, I kinda hate how the word "Casual" is wrongly used on both sides (and also used as an argument), on one end thinking casual doesn't want this type of content, and on the other end casuals that can't use their hands and wants everything to cater to them. Being a casual doesn't mean that you can't play or learn to play the game, enjoy the current dungeons/trials/raids, learn your class and all that stuff. A casual doesn't necesserily stands in town talking to people and just doing roulettes.

Also saw the argument that if you do not agree, you just want the game to cater to you and do not care about anyone else, which can also be used from both sides.

The video itself doesn't simply mock OP. Some points are kinda relevant, especially since these points are also in the comments here, but they seem to have been either ignored by OP or "disappeared" between "git gud"

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The problem is that they DO want things to cater to them, and it damages the game at large. I mean look at EW, they admitted (SE), that they dummed it down because they listened too much...like? We all have to be punished because some people cannot put in the time and effort to actually learn content? That is fair?

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

If you say so.

I say that the online equivalent of trying to run them out of town for having an opinion contrary to yours is an unhealthy mindset.

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Either do that or we are stuck with another expansion that will be a nothingburger again. No worthwhile post patch content. Just do the easy peasy MSQ and main dungeons, queue into alliance raids to do crystal tower and log off.

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Originally Posted by talloran

You should stop sheltering lazy people who don't want to bother on even trying to learn a new mechanic. You don't think people like OP are toxic? They literally confessed griecing the fight by staying dead on the ground. Stop trying to throw the word "toxic" at people who tell you to get a good a the game.

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But that's not what the OP said. They said "The Honey B fight had me wishing for the healer to not raise me, I was there in the floor, dead for the Nth time, thinking that I don't really want to be on that duty."
It's somewhat open to interpretation, but they didn't actually say they did remain dead on the ground - only that they wished they had.

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Originally Posted by mcineh

Yay! Another "get good" hero. The M+ forums are calling for you friend. Go... find your people...

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Literally a get good issue. The current normal raid is not hard.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

But that's not what the OP said. They said "The Honey B fight had me wishing for the healer to not raise me, I was there in the floor, dead for the Nth time, thinking that I don't really want to be on that duty."
It's somewhat open to interpretation, but they didn't actually say they did remain dead on the ground - only that they wished they had.

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Does it matter? OP clearly is complaining about a content they do not want to do. They should not be listened regarding the current raid tier.

I will post on the trenches of this forum until OP publicly apologizes for the terrible opinions they have.

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Originally Posted by talloran

Either do that or we are stuck with another expansion that will be a nothingburger again. No worthwhile post patch content. Just do the easy peasy MSQ and main dungeons, queue into alliance raids to do crystal tower and log off.

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I'd just like to point out that I don't entirely agree with the OP. I just dislike the approach that most others have taken to expressing their disagreement.

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Originally Posted by Jakoh_Leieiko

The problem is that they DO want things to cater to them, and it damages the game at large. I mean look at EW, they admitted (SE), that they dummed it down because they listened too much...like? We all have to be punished because some people cannot put in the time and effort to actually learn content? That is fair?

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I do agree that EW was way over the line in the "brain off" fighting. Tower of Zot was fine tho, everything else ? Failure. And Criterion being difficult doesn't make it interesting. People here complaining are confusing ENGAGING and DIFFICULT. TOP was difficult, and yet wasn't really interesting.

Also I remember everyone being hyped when they first saw Tower of Zot. And were expecting things to be more interesting with all the added sustain to tanks. Oh boy...

I do enjoy the current content designs in Dawntrail that doesn't stop at "Half-room slash" "Stacks/Spread" "Dodge puddles". And they should keep going this way.

Can't make this shit up lmao.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

I'd just like to point out that I don't entirely agree with the OP. I just dislike the approach that most others have taken to expressing their disagreement.

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Sometimes people need to have a HARD reality check on their opinions. I mean no ill will towards you, but OP must be taught their place.

I like what I saw in the extremes trials and normal raids this time around. They were both fresh and fun. One thing that has been mentioned in abundance in this thread is accepting and learning from failure. I think a lot of the people in this thread would be very understanding and helpful if they saw someone else repeatedly dying but don't offer themselves that same courtesy.

If you find the current normal raid too hard, that's okay. Run the same floor with some friends repeatedly, watch a video or hell, just get in there, fail hard and fast and have a good time. The vast majority of people aren't going to lose their shit just because you died 5 times. It happens.

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Originally Posted by Sacae

Is it new people who are saying it is too hard? I thought it was older players who've been playing for years that "can't keep up anymore?"

Could someone catch me up on what the narrative is now, I've lost track.

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The current narrative is that the netcode should intentionally be bad so that players die when they shouldn't. That makes it more challenging and you have to master not just the mechanics, but the lag behind them.

Case in point: OP said the following, which are intentional design elements:

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-Nasty mechanic overlaps, stuff you would see on extreme and harder fights.
-Mechs resolving too quickly for the mental capacity they demand to process.
-One too many "catch this!" mech (mechs that have you running around like headless chicken evading seemingly random patterns).

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All of these require a game engine that can keep up to speed. FFXIV can't. Yoshida just admitted to this and people are lashing out against him because of how much they love the current game engine, even if they know it's bad. And they do this just to be superior to others. That's the new FFXIV. It's an extreme overcorrection. FFXIV will never improve when people are drooling over a dysfunctional game design. Devs will not ask executives for funding to fix netcode when they see thousands of people fawning over the current limitations and attacking those who disagree.

Hey OP, the Sims 4 is currently free right now, just thought you might like a game with no difficult mechanics where you can create your favorite blorbo and dress them up as you like! You don't even need to worry about other people telling to you learn a damn thing about the game, because its offline! Seems like the perfect game for you! xoxo <3

I heavily disagree here. Normal content has been way too easy lately and its gotten people too comfortable with just queing randomly and not care about learning the fight or even their rotation for that matter and just follow what everyone else does. This tier makes you pay attention. Makes you think. I found myself falling asleep in dungeons when i finished endwalker because i was so bored of just speeding through them. The content is not THAT hard... its just hardER than what youre used to. Begging the devs to please not reverse this and make it easy again because god i do not want to fall asleep during dungeons anymore. I am super pumped for savage and the rest of the raid tiers. Just learn the game. If you die alot THATS FINE nobodys gonna make fun of you for learning. We wiped at least twice to each raid boss (5 times to the second one hehe) and ive never had so much fun in a raid before. Its SUPPOSED to be a challenge. Youre SUPPOSED to think its hard at first. Raids are SUPPOSED to be HARD (thats why its end-game content and also OPTIONAL). But if you give up then youre just hurting yourself and then others by coming on here and complaining that its too hard. A lot of us like the challenge. The game should not be made easier just because a handful of people gave up on the first try. Sorry if that all sounds harsh but its seriously not that bad. This is a good change and i hope the devs listen and see that and continue to challenge us in the future. We are level 100. Baby time is over.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

The current narrative is that the netcode should intentionally be bad so that players die when they shouldn't. That makes it more challenging and you have to master not just the mechanics, but the lag behind them.

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I feel like mastering the jank and the lag + mechs is also part of the game. If it should improve to be more responsive i'd welcome it, but I don't feel like it's game-breaking bad since we're past 10 years of dealing with it in both content that's facerolly and punishing content like TOP.

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Originally Posted by talloran

Sometimes people need to have a HARD reality check on their opinions. I mean no ill will towards you, but OP must be taught their place.

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Taught their place? It's a bloody game.

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Originally Posted by Alyx-Greywind

Taught their place? It's a bloody game.

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Why are they complaining about the difficulty, then? The argument goes both ways. It's a bloody game, after all.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

The current narrative is that the netcode should intentionally be bad so that players die when they shouldn't. That makes it more challenging and you have to master not just the mechanics, but the lag behind them.

Case in point: OP said the following, which are intentional design elements:


All of these require a game engine that can keep up to speed. FFXIV can't. Yoshida just admitted to this and people are lashing out against him because of how much they love the current game engine, even if they know it's bad. And they do this just to be superior to others. That's the new FFXIV. It's an extreme overcorrection. FFXIV will never improve when people are drooling over a dysfunctional game design. Devs will not ask executives for funding to fix netcode when they see thousands of people fawning over the current limitations and attacking those who disagree.

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Where do you see the lashing out agaisnt him ?

Also, he said the game engine/netcode is indeed terrible, and it's also why they have to limit themselves on what they do and how they create contents. They're doing internal tests on contents, they know when it's too much and when it's not. If they put it in the game, they're confident about it. Sometimes it fails. Sometimes it works. People are saying that the COMBAT DESIGN is good, not that the game engine is good. You're getting it wrong here.

One more post in case Arthars decides to brigade the thread again:

If Pong had FFXIV-style "snapshotting" and lag, do you think video games would've taken off when they did? Or would people have simply shrugged them off as a janky gimmick? Because, as far as I know, gaming has always been about matching your controls with the video output.

Imagine hitting your pixel ball by the bottom half of your stick and it still misses. Do you think people would have enjoyed playing video games like that?

https://files.catbox.moe/ucuzka.png

The Final Fantasy XIV community has this "snowflake" attitude whereby they pretend like their game is uniquely gifted. It has the best story with the best gameplay. They don't play anything else. I play very old games, including online games, and none of them have this issue that you all are fawning over. It's 2024, we should be more advanced, not less. This is a very easy thing to get behind.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

I feel like mastering the jank and the lag + mechs is also part of the game. If it should improve to be more responsive i'd welcome it, but I don't feel like it's game-breaking bad since we're past 10 years of dealing with it in both content that's facerolly and punishing content like TOP.

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This is a losing argument. You should've argued that these raids don't have lag, rather than trying to defend the lag. No other AAA game has this issue to the extent that FFXIV has.

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Originally Posted by Kiurt

If they put it in the game, they're confident about it. Sometimes it fails. Sometimes it works. People are saying that the COMBAT DESIGN is good, not that the game engine is good.

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If the engine is bad, then the content is bad. Pre-Dawntrail content was slower to accommodate the slower engine. Now they have sped up mechanics without fixing the underlying engine. There have been numerous issues outlined by OP and others, including the first boss of Strayborough and a few of the other mechanics in the raid series, where mechanics move faster than the snapshot period and have unclear cast zones. We will see what happens when Savage comes out, but my prediction is that it will get even faster to the point where people will complain. And the same acolytes will come out saying that Savage is "supposed to be hard".

I am only outlining an obvious problem. There are two solutions, slow down the mechanics or fix the engine. The community doesn't like the former, so the second is the obvious choice. But it seems more likely that none will be chosen and instead this will persist because people deny that the problem exists.

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Originally Posted by Deslyxic

I'm having breakfast, let me alone.

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All you want is to complain and validation. You want everything handed to you on a plate with zero effort. I mean this in the most sincere and nice way possible: Get good or get gone.

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Originally Posted by talloran

Why are they complaining about the difficulty, then? The argument goes both ways. It's a bloody game, after all.

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People are allowed to complain, telling them they need to be taught their place is such a nasty backhanded comment. It's entirely different.

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Originally Posted by Alyx-Greywind

People are allowed to complain, telling them they need to be taught their place is such a nasty backhanded comment. It's entirely different.

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They don't get to complain about content they do not care to learn. It is not their place to comment on content they don't engage with. They must be taught their place.

The two post MSQ 4 man dungeons are the best 4 man content in the game at current by a wide margin and I look forward to this savage tier even more so after seeing those raids.

Get good or get gone, OP. Final Fantasy XIV is on its tracks to become a proper videogame again, this is not the place for you or your kind anymore.

This comment in Arthars's video raises a great point.

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@Tyrbris
4 hours ago
I like the direction DT has taken with normal mode content, but I dread getting stuck in roulettes with these people that will just give up or never learn.

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See, people is dismissing this issue thinking they are not affected are wrong. You are in the same boat with people like me whether you like it or not.

And I already made the decision of not even trying M3 or M4, but the alternative, the malicious compliance way, would be to just to go to the raids and just stand there doing some semblance of a rotation, zero effort of doing mechanics, and when I die and get raised I do it again. "Sorry guys, I'm still learning the fight. Tee hee! ^_^" (might even turn off skip of watched cutscenes to sell the illusion). And when the healers get tired or expending MP on my sorry butt, I just gonna lie down in the floor, watching something on the other monitor. But I will sure fit and perky for the moment of rolling the loot. Or maybe I'll just finish whatever I was watching before I roll, that would be fun for M4 that I'm pretty sure must have a minion.

But you see I already decided that I gonna protest (and yes, I think deserves to be protested) by just not doing it (already said it in the OP) and not go with the second option because a) I'm not an as$hole, and b) as I said I don't believe the people in this forum represent the community at large and I would be griefing the wrong people.


On a completely unrelated note, I love all the people saying that criterion weren't played because of the rewards, Xeno already covered that on a video. You all love so much the challenge for the sake of a challenge that you kick the content under the rug the second it doesn't reward you with something to showoff how much of a Big Boy Gamer you are!
If that's is the rule, let me tell that undyable gear and some ts are not reward enough for the difficulty of these normal raids.

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Originally Posted by Deslyxic

This comment in Arthars's video raises a great point.

See, people is dismissing this issue thinking they are not affected are wrong. You are in the same boat with people like me whether you like it or not.

And I already made the decision of not even trying M3 or M4, but the alternative, the malicious compliance way, would be to just to go to the raids and just stand there doing some semblance of a rotation, zero effort of doing mechanics, and when I die and get raised I do it again. "Sorry guys, I'm still learning the fight. Tee hee! ^_^" (might even turn off skip of watched cutscenes to sell the illusion). And when the healers get tired or expending MP on my sorry butt, I just gonna lie down in the floor, watching something on the other monitor. But I will sure fit and perky for the moment of rolling the loot. Or maybe I'll just finish whatever I was watching before I roll, that would be fun for M4 that I'm pretty sure must have a minion.

But you see I already decided that I gonna protest (and yes, I think deserves to be protested) by just not doing it (already said it in the OP) and not go with the second option because a) I'm not an as$hole, and b) as I said I don't believe the people in this forum represent the community at large and I would be griefing the wrong people.


On a completely unrelated note, I love all the people saying that criterion weren't played because of the rewards, Xeno already covered that on a video. You all love so much the challenge for the sake of a challenge that you kick the content under the rug the second it doesn't reward you with something to showoff how much of a Big Boy Gamer you are!
If that's is the rule, let me tell that undyable gear and some ts are not reward enough for the difficulty of these normal raids.

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get good or get gone, the game is not being tailored to your wishes anymore.

This expansion finally has content that makes me think. Endwalker was super easy. The expert dungeons this time around threw me for a loop the first couple runs. The normal raids actually wiped me once.

You've had 100 levels and several expansions to learn the game. The attacks are well telegraphed. By this point you should know to pay attention to the boss's movements and not just aoe markers on the ground. AOE bigger than you expected? Well you know after getting hit by it. Mistakes are allowed to happen. If this is your first expansion even doing normal raids I could see it being a big jump compared to story dungeons, but to that end I'd suggest going back and doing the old raids. Learn the common mechanics recycled through expansions.

You have no one to blame for your lack of ability than yourself. It takes time, and practice. Make mistakes. Hell, stop hitting the boss if a mechanic is confusing you and focus on the mechanic. It's normal mode. Stop ranting about how things need to be easier for you when the bulk of players have no issue with it. The vocal minority should not get to ruin optional content for everyone else. If you can figure out the forums then you can figure out using google and youtube, and seek out resources to help you improve.

I'm sorry you had a rough time, but you said you can learn a fight. So are you really complaining about the difficulty being a step up from Endwalker, or are you complaining that on day 1 everyone was in the same boat as you, and learning the fight for the first time? Just genuinely curious given the amount of resources online, and how the game itself has taught players over the course of multiple expansions.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

This is a losing argument. You should've argued that these raids don't have lag, rather than trying to defend the lag. No other AAA game has this issue to the extent that FFXIV has.

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LMAO. I mean, I wasn't arguing to win here, I'd welcome no lag, but since it's not going anywhere without a complete redo of the game engine it's at the end of the day just another thing to deal with.

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Originally Posted by Deslyxic

This comment in Arthars's video raises a great point.

See, people is dismissing this issue thinking they are not affected are wrong. You are in the same boat with people like me whether you like it or not.

And I already made the decision of not even trying M3 or M4, but the alternative, the malicious compliance way, would be to just to go to the raids and just stand there doing some semblance of a rotation, zero effort of doing mechanics, and when I die and get raised I do it again. "Sorry guys, I'm still learning the fight. Tee hee! ^_^" (might even turn off skip of watched cutscenes to sell the illusion). And when the healers get tired or expending MP on my sorry butt, I just gonna lie down in the floor, watching something on the other monitor. But I will sure fit and perky for the moment of rolling the loot. Or maybe I'll just finish whatever I was watching before I roll, that would be fun for M4 that I'm pretty sure must have a minion.

But you see I already decided that I gonna protest (and yes, I think deserves to be protested) by just not doing it (already said it in the OP) and not go with the second option because a) I'm not an as$hole, and b) as I said I don't believe the people in this forum represent the community at large and I would be griefing the wrong people.


On a completely unrelated note, I love all the people saying that criterion weren't played because of the rewards, Xeno already covered that on a video. You all love so much the challenge for the sake of a challenge that you kick the content under the rug the second it doesn't reward you with something to showoff how much of a Big Boy Gamer you are!
If that's is the rule, let me tell that undyable gear and some ts are not reward enough for the difficulty of these normal raids.

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So you are going to just become a problem because you don't care to learn? Lol you are actually toxic, keep projecting onto those who care enough to learn and grow in the game they enjoy playing. You obviously care enough to make a post in the forums, and yet the second you get pushback, it becomes a huge issue. This was bold to post, and the majority of people calling you out with plausible, well thought-out responses are "toxic". My gosh.

I don't feel like the people with difficulty issues are actually complaining about the lag at all. If they were, the complaint wouldn't be "this is too hard" but "this mechanics is unfair/doesn't register correctly." They would be mentioning the fact that they KNOW the mechanic and felt like they did it PROPERLY but got hit anyway.

They are truly struggling with identifying and responding to mechanics. Which makes me think that if the engine/netcode were improved so that visuals/damage snapshots actually lined up they wouldn't have any easier of a time getting through it.

I have seen 3 players from China clear UCOB on Crystal DC if they can do ultimate tier content on their connection, anyone can do anything just believe in yourselves.

idk I'm kinda sick of people who run content ONCE, at a push twice, die over and over, and because of that consider it a fault of the core design.

As with any normal content, I guarantee the 5th time you run it, it will be so much easier for you.

Failing that, how about:

A) Don't do the content. Half of the stuff folks are complaining about are optional anyway.
or
B) Persevere. Learn. Failure causes you to grow and learn, so long as you use like one braincell and look inward, content will only become easier.

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Originally Posted by Deslyxic

And I already made the decision of not even trying M3 or M4, but the alternative, the malicious compliance way, would be to just to go to the raids and just stand there doing some semblance of a rotation, zero effort of doing mechanics, and when I die and get raised I do it again. "Sorry guys, I'm still learning the fight. Tee hee! ^_^" (might even turn off skip of watched cutscenes to sell the illusion). And when the healers get tired or expending MP on my sorry butt, I just gonna lie down in the floor, watching something on the other monitor. But I will sure fit and perky for the moment of rolling the loot. Or maybe I'll just finish whatever I was watching before I roll, that would be fun for M4 that I'm pretty sure must have a minion.

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Go ahead and do it. The moment somebody with two braincells sees that happen they can hit you with a ToS violation for obstruction of play. If you have to break ToS to play this game how you want, then get out.

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Originally Posted by Infindox

Shinryu wasn't nerfed, it was because most people when they got to that fight had really bad gear on (mostly whatever they picked up from dungeons) and we didn't have the job gear back then like we do now. I remember having to make a PF for that fight just to beat Stormblood; I enjoyed the fight, but never had to do that since and kinda glad I don't.

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We did have job gear at that level, the level 70 job quest literally hands you a full set of job AF AND a job AF weapon. You just decided to ignore the game telling you every 2 levels to do your quests. Wish the game refused to let you continue on a quest unless you had your full job AF on, since placing you in front of the job AF vendor for the past 3 expansions also doesn't seem to be doing the trick.

The only expansion where (on launch) we didn't go into the final expansion dungeon and trial with AF gear was HW; since we got that AF as the first set of raid tome gear.

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Originally Posted by Sol_Seppy

idk I'm kinda sick of people who run content ONCE, at a push twice, die over and over, and because of that consider it a fault of the core design.

As with any normal content, I guarantee the 5th time you run it, it will be so much easier for you.

Failing that, how about:

A) Don't do the content. Half of the stuff folks are complaining about are optional anyway.
or
B) Persevere. Learn. Failure causes you to grow and learn, so long as you use like one braincell and look inward, content will only become easier.

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Genuinely don't understand why people are so deathly afraid of wiping and taking option B. I've been seeing posts on Twitter too where people complain about not wanting to wipe after their first run. Why are you afraid of resetting and trying again when this is something you do regularly in any other genre of game? Does it hurt your ego? Well I'm sorry, your ego has no place here if you haven't learned anything in five expansions to back it up. It's baffling how fragile players nowadays are. Fight design is the ONE thing I will praise DT for, and they're trying to squander it.