The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

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Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

It's odd that so many are of the perspective that we have to come to some kind of universal consensus for the discussion to be tabled as a good one. That's literally never going to happen. The discussions of things like the Sundering go on at length, even in circles, because different people have different insights into it at a given time. If someone finds this to be a tired topic, there is quite literally nothing forcing you to participate in it. As for the subject of 'derailing other threads' this is one about the Sundering, hence why it's gone on so long. As someone who has participated in these discussions, I have not seen it much of anywhere where these events and characters were not related.

This event and the characters surrounding it are some of the most important to the world's lore, as well as the game's writing right now. There's no need to police others discussion for something you do not have to contribute to or even see. I for one will discuss this until I'm blue in the face because it is fun and enlightening to see the thoughts of so many.

Of course the insults could certainly be dialed back.

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Sure, a good discussion doesn't have to end in unanimous agreement, but I think the fact that many, including myself, feel frustrated and disappointed with the conversation is indicative of the convos nature. Discussions that end in everyone throwing up their hands in resignation is not a good sign for the quality of said discussion.

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Originally Posted by Layte_Aeon

Well, the disolving and reforming of a soul takes a lot of time if we go by the one example we have: Loghrif's soul took 80 years to be disolved into the lifestream, reforged and then be born into a different body. If that's roughly how long any reincarnation process takes no wonder the comparatively recently deceased can manifest and even then they aren't quite themselves.

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Loghriff was also sundered, which has to make a difference, even Ascended Ascians are still aetherically less dense than the Unsundered. I very much suspect the Unsundered do not break down that way at all unless they choose to.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Sure, a good discussion doesn't have to end in unanimous agreement, but I think the fact that many, including myself, feel frustrated and disappointed with the conversation is indicative of the convos nature. Discussions that end in everyone throwing up their hands in resignation is not a good sign for the quality of said discussion.

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I think this is why many posters have said, if at any point someone feels frustrated or disappointed, they’re free to leave the discussion. No point making themselves feel frustrated or disappointed. Or, if there’s a specific person instigating it, the ignore function works quite well in my experience.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I think this is why many posters have said, if at any point someone feels frustrated or disappointed, they’re free to leave the discussion. No point making themselves feel frustrated or disappointed. Or, if there’s a specific person instigating it, the ignore function works quite well in my experience.

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That’s missing the point. A discussion that ends in both sides voting to ignore the other is a failed discussion.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

That’s missing the point. A discussion that ends in both sides voting to ignore the other is a failed discussion.

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Not necessarily failed, so long as it’s not everyone that’s ignoring each other. There may be a select few individuals that take part in a discussion that may either be more sensitive or more easily angered, and thus they should take said advice. Otherwise it’s possible for there to still be a valid discussion imo. It wouldn’t suffer just for the bad decisions of a few people.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Not necessarily failed, so long as it’s not everyone that’s ignoring each other. There may be a select few individuals that take part in a discussion that may either be more sensitive or more easily angered, and thus they should take said advice. Otherwise it’s possible for there to still be a valid discussion imo. It wouldn’t suffer just for the bad decisions of a few people.

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It is everyone ignoring one another though. Gods we haven’t even agreed on whether Hermes was necessary for the halting of the Final Days, a prerequisite for a prerequisite in discussing what Venats reasons for Sundering were. Oftentimes the discussion might as well be people arguing over different stories entirely.

Add in the ridiculous bad faith assertions by people and we don’t have discussion.

We have shit flinging.

I'm not sure Hermes matters anymore. Based on the Q&A, Venat's reasons for the sundering were because she didn't believe the Ancients could change or that they were capable of defeating Meteion without the ability to interact with dynamis, so it sounds like even without Zodiark she would have still sundered the world for those reasons. At no point even after he's summoned (when it wouldn't matter if Hermes fell apart one way or another) does she decide to tell her people the truth either.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I'm not sure Hermes matters anymore. Based on the Q&A, Venat's reasons for the sundering were because she didn't believe the Ancients could change or that they were capable of defeating Meteion without the ability to interact with dynamis, so it sounds like even without Zodiark she would have still sundered the world for those reasons. At no point even after he's summoned (when it wouldn't matter if Hermes fell apart one way or another) does she decide to tell her people the truth either.

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Hermes matters in the context of telling them of Meteion openly. The Sundering was not reliant on that remaining a secret. it was only to prevent both a panic and preventing Hermes from turning against the Ancients that decided to not inform the Convocation.

And of course, Hermes was needed because he's the only qualified expert on dynamis in the Convocation, which is pretty useful when you have a dynamis-centric disaster on your hands. Everyone else is about as knowledgeable about it as I am about quantum physics (which is to say 'I can kinda follow the first few sentences of a discussion on it and recognize a few terms').

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

I point out though that all of the Unsundered ancients are quite likely to return with memories intact due to them being aetherically dense enough for the lifestream not to strip their memories and consciousness, so "continguous consciousness" is likely to remain upon reincarnation. Hythlodaeus and Emet Selch are clear proof of the fact that the Unsundered retain consciousness and coherence within the Lifestream.

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A couple pages late on this (because I had to sleep and work, go figure), but... uhhh, that's not how it works. At all. Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus weren't cleansed because it hadn't been long at all since their deaths, and because generally having business in life gives people's selves the strengths to hold on longer. Remember that the earliest death reflected in the Aitiascope is Rhytatyn, and he's basically fine, which kinda showcases a minimum of how far both of these can hold.

If pure soul density was the culprit, then Ancient society wouldn't even consider death to be any form of finality at all, because someone would come back with all their memories. Death would just be a bit of a break before they bounced right back as exceptionally productive babies. And we know that's wrong, because Fake Amaurot's denizens treated us like children solely because of size, meaning that the Ancients had a concept of 'small person = child who does not yet know the ways of this world'.

EDIT: I don't really like the overall Amaurot and Sundering discussion all that much because I find the subject fairly uninteresting and overtalked at this point, but one of the funniest parts to me is when we occasionally have to step back and establish such base-level concepts as 'the existence of children'.

Elidibus is gone. Time travel expends a massive amount of Aether, and he himself tells you that creating a conduit to Elpis will drain the last drops of Aether from his soul. Emet describes likewise how Lahabrea's reckless soul jumps left his soul progressively more broken, like his Phoinix, burning itself to ash. I presume this which is why his ARR/Heavensward incarnation is a hollow shell of his former power. Emet is really the only unsundered who could conceivably come back because of how stingy he's been with his bounteous reserves, and he's clearly smart enough to retire when he's ahead. I'm sure that he'll make an obligate cameo again at some point, though. I personally think that he should just possess the Wandering Minstrel and get his revenge through devious mechanics.

As for the events of Ultima Thule, they essentially confirmed the natural laws don't really apply in there, being a world driven by your internal perceptions. I think that you probably could have summoned anyone or anything in there had you the conviction to bring it forth.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Actually, we heard from... rather a few of them. And by my count, the ones that didn't want to come back, or at least seemed to make peace with the fact that wasn't happening...

• Emet-Selch
• Mitron
• Loghrif (sort of, that one's complicated)
• Elidibus
• Fandaniel (in all identities)
• Hythlodaeus
• Most unnamed Zodiark sacrifices
• Venat

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This whole list is such a huge stretch that it does not hold any water. There is Hades, who directly said it. And there is loony Hermes who already wanted to kill everyone while everything was still unsundered. I would count him as 0.5 at best since he did not care about Etheirys at any state. Mitron and Loghrif hope to meet again in the future, maybe. Loghrif actually chose to live here and now with sundered people (1/14, not even 8/14) even after her memories were restored by Mitron. Hythlodeus would most definitely stay if Hades did since he only wants to be by his friends' side. Venat did not say whether she would like to stay or not, we just know she is gone completely and has not even a choice anymore. Elidibus chose to sacrifice all of his aether to save sundered planet without any hope to have it whole again. If that means he is completely gone without any choice like Venat, I am not completely sure. As for sacrifices, they wanted to protect the star. Now that they do not need to do it any more who knows what they would want...

As far as we know, 100% usage of spiritual aether means soul destruction. At this point there's a reasonably large list of NPCs that won't be coming back, Elidibus and Venat among them.

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Originally Posted by Erendis

This whole list is such a huge stretch that it does not hold any water. There is Hades, who directly said it. And there is loony Hermes who already wanted to kill everyone while everything was still unsundered. I would count him as 0.5 at best since he did not care about Etheirys at any state. Mitron and Loghrif hope to meet again in the future, maybe. Loghrif actually chose to live here and now with sundered people (1/14, not even 8/14) even after her memories were restored by Mitron. Hythlodeus would most definitely stay if Hades did since he only wants to be by his friends' side. Venat did not say whether she would like to stay or not, we just know she is gone completely and has not even a choice anymore. Elidibus chose to sacrifice all of his aether to save sundered planet without any hope to have it whole again. If that means he is completely gone without any choice like Venat, I am not completely sure. As for sacrifices, they wanted to protect the star. Now that they do not need to do it any more who knows what they would want...

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I'm not entirely sure you understand the purpose of the list. These are the Ancients that, overall, seemed to die content with that fact, to contrast with the much shorter list of the ones that weren't.

Emet-Selch directly said it, yes.
Mitron wasn't exactly happy with the fact, but accepted it.
Loghrif is weird because we kinda have to synthesize her stance from Gaia, but that final scene with Mitron does effectively say that Loghrif is happy with yielding to Gaia, and maybe they'll meet again in a spiritual sense. If Loghrif counts anywhere she counts here, but if you wanted to remove her I wouldn't argue.
Elidibus had some trouble, but overall embraced... whatever cessation of self is in store for him, be it reincarnation or not.
Fandaniel was suicidal. That's not a great way to embrace your inevitable end, but it unarguably is doing so.
Most of the unnamed sacrifices we hear from in Mare Lamentorum seem okay with their fate... except for the part where it's not working. There are some that clearly regret their choice, but it's not overall; mostly they're just anxious about other things.
Hythlodaeus seems like he could go either way; if he got to live again he'd be cool with that, but he's also entirely okay with going forth into death. Which frankly concerns me; I feel like you should have a stronger stance on that, dude, that is a weird fence to sit on.
And Venat states directly that she's happy with her fate. That fate may not be reincarnation, but she's happy with it.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Hythlodaeus seems like he could go either way; if he got to live again he'd be cool with that, but he's also entirely okay with going forth into death. Which frankly concerns me; I feel like you should have a stronger stance on that, dude, that is a weird fence to sit on.

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I got the impression Hythlodaeus was more interested in seeing how the final chapter in the story of his people would play out than actually coming back to life. Being given a momentary (but very important) role in the salvation of Etheirys was just a nice bonus.

In Hythlodaeus' case we're talking about a character who was selfless enough to sacrifice himself to Zodiark in order to help restore Etheirys after the Final Days struck. By his own admission, he wasn't a 'fighter' in the same way as Venat or Emet. He also states in Elpis that he sees the willing return to Etheirys as a beautiful moment.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I got the impression Hythlodaeus was more interested in seeing how the final chapter in the story of his people would play out than actually coming back to life. Being given a momentary (but very important) role in the salvation of Etheirys was just a nice bonus.

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My general sense is that he and Emet are waiting for the WoL to pass on, so they can be reborn together to have new adventures.

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Originally Posted by LystAP

My general sense is that he and Emet are waiting for the WoL to pass on, so they can be reborn together to have new adventures.

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A rather excellent premise for FFXIV-2! ;)

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Originally Posted by LystAP

My general sense is that he and Emet are waiting for the WoL to pass on, so they can be reborn together to have new adventures.

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My impression as well even if Emet played grump when it was suggested