Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

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Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

I really don't think a res is needed for the class to be viable in progression, Ultimate's first clear had MCH-BRD-DRG-NIN so no combat res from their dps and while they said in an interview how important RDM was for their progression, even if we get a res there is no way it would be as powerful as RDM's, meaning that if a group feel dps res is important they would still progress with RDM.

However if we do enough damage (either by pure super high personal damage or some kind of offensive utility) to surpass SMN people would try to fit the class in the team because in the end you need damage to kill the boss, just like happened on Ultimate's first clear where they used RDM to make progression faster but to actually kill they went with the physical meta because it just brings way more damage to the table and quite frankly if we do the damage we should be doing and your static bullies you into playing something else you would be better with another static.

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I'm a bit torn on what Lucrezia said since they said they changed their dps setup to get the kill but allowed the DRK to stay DRK even though a WAR would've been better, it's somewhat a double standard for me but maybe it's just me

A reraise would have some implications that come along with it. For instance, for a buster a tank has no cooldowns for usually War holms or pld hgs. Being able to cast a reraise on mt 15 seconds in advance... I can see a lot of parties taking summoners along just for a reraise to add to tank damage.

Definitely an interesting take on the concept of support.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

A reraise would have some implications that come along with it. For instance, for a buster a tank has no cooldowns for usually War holms or pld hgs. Being able to cast a reraise on mt 15 seconds in advance... I can see a lot of parties taking summoners along just for a reraise to add to tank damage.

Definitely an interesting take on the concept of support.

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yeah tank buster might be a point that was a question yesterday as well but like he said you would lose a massive dps-burst yourself in exchange for support. Mechanics like that would also give Blm the spot to be the brute forcer again, while smn has to decide whats more important grp utility or personal dmg. this way or another I think demi-primals has open up lots of options in balancing - cause they are not just a ocgd, but a whole sequence which needs timing and foreseeing and it would mirror the lore as well if they focus on them instead of ruin lvl xiv.... : /

Reraise is gonna be a thing from WHM eventually and besides, as I said to LLugen, it's something that BLM could put a spin on it and borrowing the soulstones mechanics from wow (since they already borrowed demonic circle and backdraft from that class anyway)

you got a point with crossing the healers toolkits in the future but they have to separate at least Blm and Smn somehow again... to avoid perm dps adjustments between both of them. Personally my favorite time being a smn was the strict separation in Burst and AoE Kings. I wonder why they changed that cause I felt that was some way to do it right. Now they defintily need something else giving Blm his brute force spot back. Nobody likes way stronger smns than blms in rdps - so smn mostlikely have to be kind of hybrid with utilities to avoid Blms profession with the next lvl 80 skill finisher... or they could focus on egis but since the demi mechanic is way easier to balance than rework the pet system I doubt they will ever take their hands on them... : /

Balancing the role down to remove raises completely would be theoretically fine, except that I don't see them removing rez dispenser any time soon (I've hashed this out with Remedi a few pages back). The role MIGHT be balanced if they remove Resurrection from SMN, but then you are almost guaranteed just going to bring RDM for early progression since it would then be the only one with raise, so it's kinda the same shtick.

A re-raise or pre-raise on BLM sounds like it would be a sort of acceptable option as well; anything off-GCD and recast related I would be a proponent of. Contrary to popular belief, I'm very open to discussing solutions, I'm just NOT open to "hurdurr your stupid muh 'splosions no rez plz yoship sed", which is the bulk of the responses to this thread.

Also, addressing the world first unending group, they are literally the best players in the game. They are the 1% of the 1%, and they spent probably upwards of 40 hours working in there practically nonstop. If they in particular don't "need" a raise, it is because they are S-tier players. The majority of the playerbase, hell, even the majority of the raiders (which probably makes up what 30% or less of the playerbase?) would still benefit from having raise in progression. Furthermore, they might have saved themselves some time having raise to see more mechanics, etc., but regardless, we are not all Lucrezia.

Also also, Neela, I am very capable of playing SMN, I just don't want to have to play it in progression. I play with my friends and I don't want to have to search far and wide for a static that will take BLM when it's crappy (or "stoop" to a lower level group, to be honest), I just want BLM to be a viable option during progression. I feel like that's really not that much to ask.

They used RDM during early prog, they mentioned like doing 20 raises in a fight since they essentially brute forced it to see it, they switched to SMN and then to double ranged when they pushed for the kill, in their own words they said it would've required 2 more days to get it otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

They used RDM during early prog, they mentioned like doing 20 raises in a fight since they essentially brute forced it to see it, they switched to SMN and then to double ranged when they pushed for the kill

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People saying RDM is "bad" for prog now that SMN has raise really don't believe in this. Shh, don't speak truths. Might break their logic.

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Originally Posted by Maero

It remains to be seen yet if the blm "changes" will be of any value...

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If 4.2 makes it so black mages do the most damage of the Disciple of Magic DPS jobs while still having no utility, I'd be fine with that. If they make black mages' DPS tie with summoner while adding a utility like making the party do more damage, I'd be just as fine. I would not be fine with black mages getting some variant of Raise.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

We can definitely disagree on the correct solution(s) (including doing nothing), but there is certainly a problem.

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The problem seems to be that you don't like the fact black mage is easy to play but hard to master, which is something that's true for most jobs in the game, Disciple of Magic or otherwise. As a black mage, what I've noticed are the required advanced skills for raiding would be knowing how to move while casting, knowing where to place Ley Lines, and knowing when to time your Fire IV spam. It really doesn't sound all that different from summoner, actually, because a summoner needs to know when to cast Miasma III and Bio III (or use Tri-Disaster), when to use Summon Bahamut, and when to use Dreadwyrm Trance. A red mage needs to know when to use Manafication, when and from where to use Corps-a-corps and Displacement, and when to use his weaponskill combo.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Just because BLM could use raise does not mean that it does not have other issues to be addressed.

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I don't think you quite understand how those issues should be addressed in the larger scheme of things, however. Your statement that lore can be rewritten is not only false, it is flawed and disrespectful. You have to understand that this is FINAL FANTASY XIV, not FINAL FANTASY III. It's pretty darn late to be rewriting anything. Sure, you could slap a Raise variant onto the thaumaturge and call it necromancy, but that would not only not solve anything, it would also subject black mages to all the same problems summoners and red mages face in terms of how to use Verraise and Resurrection. Black mages are already meant to be the high-DPS turret job, and adding a Raise variant would make it harder, not easier for them to be that. I'd also like to note that the one and only time a black mage got a support spell was at the beginning, with the Temper spell in FINAL FANTASY. Black mages have literally been 100% straight damage and/or damage over time ever since. I checked. And even if you don't care about the series' lore, there's no denying that the red mage is more mobile than the summoner, and the summoner has literally always been more mobile than the black mage. That's how these jobs are designed for this game.

You can talk about the DPS Disciple of Magic role all you like, but you are not understanding it. We are DPS first and foremost. Red mage got Vercure and Verraise for lore reasons. Summoner got Resurrection because arcanist has it, and arcanist has it because it also becomes scholar (Physick follows this pattern as well). Our job is not to help with progression, although we can. Our job is high magic damage in short amounts of time at range. That does not mean you get to turn every DPS Disciple of Magic into a jack of all trades that's supposed to help with progression. You know what else helps with progression, in fact? Lots and lots of damage. If you're having trouble with a mechanic, bring a black mage and see if you can do enough damage to skip that mechanic entirely. A black mage that wants to routinely run raids like Deltascape V4.0 (Savage) should already know how to move and when to cast.

In short, you're literally just looking for a crutch to lean on when you ask that black mages get a Raise variant, and in doing so you fail to understand what black mages are.

Really, the BLM doesn't need a raise because of the lore (am I talking series? Or talking ingame? I'm actually talking both!) and the fact that it would highly clash with Enochian and the almost tunnel vision required to play BLM to its fullest damage.

I mean, that's as far as I can go.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

In short, you're literally just looking for a crutch to lean on when you ask that black mages get a Raise variant, and in doing so you fail to understand what black mages are.

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Sigh. It's painful, it really is. I say the same things over and over again that people apparently haven't even bothered reading. I addressed like literally everything in this post already; the fact that you can't understand it is staggering.

The caster role is off-balance. Two out of three of the jobs have access to Raise, an extremely useful progression tool. One of them does not. Which do you think will be shunned? Lore is important and lore can be reinvented, not sure where you get the idea that things haven't changed since FFIII, there have been tons of additions and changes and re-imaginings since then. This franchise is the literal definition of recycling/reimagining concepts and ideas.

Please, tell me some more that I "don't understand" the class. I understand perfectly well that no matter how much damage it does (within reasonable balance), the other two jobs will still be significantly stronger for progression. Call it "a crutch" all you want, I don't even care anymore, it's a crutch that every party benefits significantly from, which translates directly into shunning BLM. In case you missed the memo, they stopped "intense damage checks" after Gordias, save for ultimate, and exactly TWO BLMs have cleared unending coil.

If you don't raid at progression levels, then this issue basically doesn't even concern you, to be blunt. You're not the one who will be forced to play another job because of the imbalance of the role.

(I maybe read like the 10 1rst pages when the post was created, but sorry I didn't read it all)

I guess the problem with giving BLM Raise is mainly that it costs nothing to them other than dps, as they are the unlimited mana mage (others can technically never run out of mana if managed properly, but the BLM really has infinite mana pool).

Then we would have the "instant raise" from RDM, the "no mana problem to raise" from the BLM. I guess people would then complain about the raise skill of SMN.
Knowing healers have way more mana problems than the casters already, I guess the main raising role would go to dd casters then. Maybe it's already the case and that's the problem for BLM to don't have one?

Edit : When I think about it, there was a powerfull (and beautiful) magic called Meltdown in FF8 and reducing enemy def to 0. So in a way, they could make the BLM have a skill of this kind to upgrade dmg from all allies (and Meltdown is the kind of animation the current BLM could have).
It also could be made in the form of a Curse, they are Black Mage after all.

So RDM would be the safest (and weakest), then SMN, and BLM would be the risk for reward (no raise, more dmg whatever the form of it, from himself or from allies).

BLM have infinite resources for their dps rotation, they do not have infinite mana, the difference is that if you are in astral you don't want to spend MP on anything other than fire spells, that means your only opportunity window is during umbral ice.
What ppl fear of giving a normal raise is the implications of swiftcast and triplecast, which I found absurd when you have RDM already, not to mention the heavy personal cost for the BLM that has to sacrifice most of their movement tools for it .

In short you have a specific opportunity window and an hefty personal requirement, which frankly is not as broken as it seems at least on my perspective considering what the other jobs can current achieve

Edit: Be warned I do not advocate for it, quite the opposite actually

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Also, addressing the world first unending group, they are literally the best players in the game. They are the 1% of the 1%, and they spent probably upwards of 40 hours working in there practically nonstop. If they in particular don't "need" a raise, it is because they are S-tier players. The majority of the playerbase, hell, even the majority of the raiders (which probably makes up what 30% or less of the playerbase?) would still benefit from having raise in progression. Furthermore, they might have saved themselves some time having raise to see more mechanics, etc., but regardless, we are not all Lucrezia.

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What I meant was that no matter if we can res with a huge cd we are not going to be chosen over RDM for early progression, the best in the world used RDM a lot to progress in the fight and mentioned how important the class was for them, but when they needed damage they got ditched in favor of the physical ranged meta, so as long as we can surpass MCH and SMN total damage (and we should because their mobility and defensive utility is way better than ours) we will be chosen when the group is close to the clear and we also may be chosen alongside RDM during early progression because damage is always going to be important.

99% of the prog groups had a dps who could res it is true but also they had three dps that can't, we can take the spot of those that can't.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

The caster role is off-balance. Two out of three of the jobs have access to Raise, an extremely useful progression tool. One of them does not. Which do you think will be shunned? Lore is important and lore can be reinvented, not sure where you get the idea that things haven't changed since FFIII, there have been tons of additions and changes and re-imaginings since then. This franchise is the literal definition of recycling/reimagining concepts and ideas.

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The caster role is off balance not because of the lack of Raise on Black Mage, it's because of the status of Red Mage and Black Mage in terms of balance. Black Mage is a pure DPS class that can't DPS with its current meta and Red Mage is a low-effort, low-potential DPS with terrible support (beyond the questionable usage of rez-battery which becomes useless after learning). As for the claim of "things having not changed since FFIII", well... they really haven't. Part of the magic of Final Fantasy is that even things are different, they remain quite similar, with each class keeping its roles and mechanics throughout the series. It's why Red Mage has the lore of being both Black and White Magic and has a Cure and Rez on top of its DPS mechanics. It's why people wild-mass guess that Astrologian is Time Mage but renamed, since there's a few call signs of the class (most notably, Gravity and the seemingly time and space based mechanics of the job on top of it having more support than its other counterparts). It's why Black Mage, no matter how many times they've been reworked, have ended up just focussing on explosions, infernos, blizzards and very frightening thunderbolts and lightning. Reimagining does happen, but for specific "core" classes, it's not a good idea to reinvent the wheel.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Please, tell me some more that I "don't understand" the class. I understand perfectly well that no matter how much damage it does (within reasonable balance), the other two jobs will still be significantly stronger for progression. Call it "a crutch" all you want, I don't even care anymore, it's a crutch that every party benefits significantly from, which translates directly into shunning BLM. In case you missed the memo, they stopped "intense damage checks" after Gordias, save for ultimate, and exactly TWO BLMs have cleared unending coil.

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Well, it sounds like you don't, because you don't seem to understand the real issues with Black Mage. Black Mage doesn't need, as you have called it, a crutch. What they need is work on the class to actually make its damage viable but the thing that makes this class viability come into check is A. the flat out nerf since 3.55 (Seriously, the loss of Raging Strikes and the 20 potency of Fire IV really hurt HARD (especially when you understand how Astral Fire adds damage, this is actually almost a 40 potency difference)) and B. its mechanics get in the way of its damage.

Enochian has always been a clunky mechanic for BLM to manage, but to make it fair for the Dev team, they fixed half of the problem by making it only part of the Astral Fire/Umbral Ice mechanic in terms of duration. The problem now, is Fire IV being as slow as it is AND not counting to Astral Fire. I cannot in good faith accept Fire IV having such a stingy cast time, whether it be in 3.x or in 4.x since it directly hampers the ability to maintain Enochian. Back in 3.x, the clunkiness had to do with the stringent timers that could never be fully refreshed, the duration constantly degenerating with each cast of Blizzard IV. Thankfully, that's gone but in its place, we now have Foul, which is essentially the same problem as old Enochian. Fire IV's slow cast time already was a poor fit for the class in 3.x, but at least it didn't end without having Astral Fire or Umbral Ice up. Here? There's a very real chance that your attempt to keep your damage will actually make you lose both Enochian AND Foul, and it's ESPECIALLY painful when losing it in your opener, since it's still on cooldown. This became my biggest issue with Black Mage in Savage, since OS3 does a very darn good job showcasing that the ARR rotation is a player's best bet at maintaining Enochian and keeping damage decent in a mobility heavy situation because of just how clunky Fire IV is in our rotation. Heck, you'll even be better at maintaining Thundercloud and Firestarter, so it's almost like Fire IV is a waste of space if you have to move heavily, and this may require more experimentation.

But in the end, the clunkiness and the immobility of Black Mage is what kills it. You need to dedicate some resources to make Black Mage viable; shields to bypass damage, causing inflexibility in terms of mechanics due to immobility, and trying to work around their tunnel vision. A Samurai is good at being pure damage because they don't get forced into tunnel vision just to keep their damage. A Black Mage cannot handle mechanics, especially random ones due to its inability to move without sacrificing around 150 potency per cast just to maintain their class mechanics, assuming no Firestarter. This is what causes Black Mages so much ire, and this is what damned Black Mage for Ultimate. In fact! I challenge you! Find how many RED MAGES completed Ultimate. You'll find Hydaelyn knows how many Summoners, yes, but the reason why THEY'RE there is because their damage is far higher than Black Mage's, to the point that they beat out Samurai in parses. In fact, the one Black Mage clear recorded on FFlogs ranks far higher, completion time wise, than any Red Mage on that list, with the static Pandoras Box ranking 11, with the highest rank Red Mage being Unreal at rank 23. Links below for citations. The only reason TO take Red Mage would be for pure progression, since Bahamut is indeed going to be DPS oriented.

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17# for proof of how well Summoners parse (and why they'd outmatch Black Mage for using in raids at the moment).

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/19#boss=1039 for Bahamut clears and the ranks that I've stated.

Oh and by the way, fun fact: OS3 does have at least 4 DPS checks, each in the form of adds: White Flame, Great Dragon, Apanda and Iron Giant + Ninjas. Not killing any of them in time essentially count as soft enrages, which more than counts as a DPS check.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

If you don't raid at progression levels, then this issue basically doesn't even concern you, to be blunt. You're not the one who will be forced to play another job because of the imbalance of the role.

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Hi! Black Mage in learning/progression party. Our trouble isn't that we need rezes, our trouble is simply us learning. What WOULD make a Black Mage unwanted is if they're unskilled because a large chunk of mechanics in the raids will mess up an inexperienced player, much less a tunnel visioned Black Mage that hasn't put things into muscle memory. Deltascape 3.0 Savage will ESPECIALLY mess up a new Black Mage due to the mechanics being RANDOM, particularly Library Spellblade Holy, Place Dark Token, Mindjack, and worse. Obviously, a rez battery will HELP, but while a Black Mage might not be able to stop DPS checks, they can certainly end a boss quickly... if they worked as intended.

Citing the adds as a "damage check" in v3s is rather weak, they most certainly get LBed especially early on lol. This might be a reason to bring a caster but not necessarily the strongest and lowest utility one.

By intense damage checks, I basically am referring to pepsiman, where even with the strongest of groups, one death/atrophy pretty much meant you couldn't hit the enrage.


If you look at the comparison between the ~15 RDMs that have cleared unending and the TWO BLMs, they are neck and neck in damage comparability.

And, to say one more time, BLM not having raise is certainly not the only problem with the class, it is just one of many balance considerations. Certainly the job also needs damage and mobility, and possibly utility. Please refer to the other 2-4 threads involving other changes/suggestions for BLM, this one is about raise and its relation to the caster role in particular.


Example of where the functions of magic have changed in FF: In FFX, every character could unlock the entire sphere grid, meaning that Lulu could unlock the white magic and Yuna could unlock the black magic. Look at that, a "black mage" with support. This is one single example.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Citing the adds as a "damage check" in v3s is rather weak, they most certainly get LBed especially early on lol. This might be a reason to bring a caster but not necessarily the strongest and lowest utility one.

By intense damage checks, I basically am referring to pepsiman, where even with the strongest of groups, one death/atrophy pretty much meant you couldn't hit the enrage.

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If you LB White Flame and/or Great Dragon, you're gonna have a bad time when you get to Apanda, where the LB on Apanda is near vital or else he soft enrages on you.

If a literal "kill this fast or you die" situation isn't a damage check, then I don't know what is.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

If you look at the comparison between the ~15 RDMs that have cleared unending and the TWO BLMs, they are neck and neck in damage comparability.

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This has still has less to do with Red Mage's strength as a damage class, and more of Black Mage's weakness as a DPS during heavy movement. In fact, Red Mage in general is the literal lowest DPS when it comes to its stats.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

And, to say one more time, BLM not having raise is certainly not the only problem with the class, it is just one of many balance considerations. Certainly the job also needs damage and mobility, and possibly utility. Please refer to the other 2-4 threads involving other changes/suggestions for BLM, this one is about raise and its relation to the caster role in particular.

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Black Mage doesn't need a raise. The idea that Black Mage needs a raise is a red herring, and derails the job.

Just because other classes in a role can do something, doesn't mean all should. Just because White Mage is a healer, doesn't mean it needs a heal that doubles as a shield. Just because Dark Knight and Paladin both use MP doesn't mean Warrior should. Just because every class has support doesn't mean Samurai needs any. Just because Bard has songs doesn't mean Machinist need the exact same kinds of buff abilities. And in this case, just because BLM is a caster, it doesn't need a Raise.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Example of where the functions of magic have changed in FF: In FFX, every character could unlock the entire sphere grid, meaning that Lulu could unlock the white magic and Yuna could unlock the black magic. Look at that, a "black mage" with support. This is one single example.

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Lulu is an exception, not the rule. And even then, Lulu needs to grab skills from Yuna in order to do so. Hell, it's the shakiest example you could have used since it's still not HER Black Magic. It's a Black Mage using a support ability from another class.

Oops.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Oh and by the way, fun fact: OS3 does have at least 4 DPS checks, each in the form of adds: White Flame, Great Dragon, Apanda and Iron Giant + Ninjas. Not killing any of them in time essentially count as soft enrages, which more than counts as a DPS check.

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You don't tank the white flame next to Hali so the cleave from Black Mage doesn't matter.
You get at most two fouls worth of damage from cleaves each on Apanda and Dragon.
The LB3 wipes out almost all of the Ninja and a good chunk of Giant health, which any caster / ranged is capable of doing.

In no way does Black mage make this encounter 'easier' by any notable stretch of the imagination. The only reason Black Mage ranks as high as it does on FFLogs is because you scumbag AoE the ninjas if another caster or ranged is in the party.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Sigh. It's painful, it really is. I say the same things over and over again that people apparently haven't even bothered reading.

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I read what you said. The problem is you simultaneously do not understand this series, this job, or this game, and you are blind to this fact. Black mage already struggles what it's designed to do, which is be a spell-slinging turret that does insane amounts of damage without moving all that much. Giving them a Raise variant would be a slap in the face, because then they'd be expected to use that on top of having an already-tight DPS rotation. You know what this would do? Further imbalance the black mage compared to the summoner and red mage.

You're asking a DPS job that fails at DPS to do less DPS. Stop that.

And then there are the lore reasons. There has been a necromancer job exactly two times in the entire FINAL FANTASY series. The first was in FINAL FANTASY V for the Game Boy Advance, Steam and mobile devices, and even then this job didn't have a Raise variant. It was much closer to being a summoner variant with attack spells. The other example is in FINAL FANTASY Airborne Brigade. However, if you look at every black mage throughout the entire series, there has never been even one with his/her/its own support spells. Lulu, for example, had to go into Yuna's part of the Sphere Grid to get any white magic, and even Yuna didn't get all the white magic in the game without invading Tidus's area. On the other hand, red mages have always been capable of both healing and offensive magic, and summoners have usually had support summons. In fact, other than Rydia, all famous summoners throughout the FINAL FANTASY games have also been white mages.

You don't know what a black mage is if you are in favor of a black mage getting its own Raise variant. Stop that.

EllieShadeflare basically just destroyed every other point you had, so I won't bother. I'll just say that if you're that desperate for a crutch, maybe FINAL FANTASY XIV is not the game for you. I hear World of Warcraft is desperate for players who want to min/max literally everything in the entire game.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You don't tank the white flame next to Hali so the cleave from Black Mage doesn't matter.
You get at most two fouls worth of damage from cleaves each on Apanda and Dragon.
The LB3 wipes out almost all of the Ninja and a good chunk of Giant health, which any caster / ranged is capable of doing.

In no way does Black mage make this encounter 'easier' by any notable stretch of the imagination. The only reason Black Mage ranks as high as it does on FFLogs is because you scumbag AoE the ninjas if another caster or ranged is in the party.

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You don't use black mage's area attack rotation when there are only two targets, either, so there goes that point. Also, black mage can limit break under Enochian without that much of an issue, but good luck getting a summoner to limit break under Dreadwyrm Trance. Therefore, a black mage's limit break is stronger than a summoner's most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

You don't use black mage's area attack rotation when there are only two targets, either, so there goes that point. Also, black mage can limit break under Enochian without that much of an issue, but good luck getting a summoner to limit break under Dreadwyrm Trance. Therefore, a black mage's limit break is stronger than a summoner's most of the time.

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You'd have the ranged DPS limitbreak in that scenario anyways. And if it's between the Summoner and the Black Mage, you're still going to have the summoner do it, because any caster based AoE damage during the ninja phase is fluff damage, and the black mage will kill the Giant more expediently.

Gonna say it again for probably the 20th time in this thread, you can argue with me all you want about the solution to the problem, but there is undeniably 100% a problem.

You say BLM doesn't need raise because it's a caster, then fine, it needs to be removed from the other two for role balance. This is also the title of this thread. However, we have no reason at all to believe they will nerf rez dispenser. So the more feasible solution is to put a raise option on BLM.


I don't care if Lulu is the exception or the rule, it's citable proof that the "black mage" has access to white magic/reimagining how the jobs can work. So don't stand there and say it's "set in stone the way it is" when it's not. Consider the Yuke race in the Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles series, they are the "black mages" with the highest magic damage, but it also makes the most sense to use cure and life on them because they also have the fastest cast time.

All I'm really trying to do is insist that you open up your (collective) closed minds and realize that maybe classes really can do things differently than they had done in the past (consider Kimari from FFX as well, a synthesized Blue Mage and Dragoon). I'm never going to buy your "the classes/lore never changes" argument, ever; there is plenty of solid evidence debunking it (SAM used to be a tank, now it's a DPS, DRK used to be a DPS, now it's a tank, SMN used to nuke with summons and epic spells, now it's a DoT class (which also nukes with epic summons/spells, but you get my point)).

The developers can justifiably do whatever they damn well please with whichever jobs they see fit, and there could be numerous ways to implement an ability that functions as a raise with a justifiable lore/backdrop that befits Black Mage (necromancy, arcane magic, "aetherial", void magic, the list could go on).

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Gonna say it again for probably the 20th time in this thread, you can argue with me all you want about the solution to the problem, but there is undeniably 100% a problem.

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Yes, and this isn't that problem. As @Ceallach put it, you're asking a DPS job that needs to get better at DPS to get worse at DPS. This is the straw that broke Red Mage's back, alongside its already lack of DPS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

You say BLM doesn't need raise because it's a caster, then fine, it needs to be removed from the other two for role balance. This is also the title of this thread. However, we have no reason at all to believe they will nerf rez dispenser. So the more feasible solution is to put a raise option on BLM.

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Red Mage NEEDS a potency buff, if anything. It's not viable for anything BUT progress, and that's a sorry state. However, just because a class shares a role/archetype DOESN'T MEAN THAT EVERYTHING NEEDS A SPECIFIC TOOL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

I don't care if Lulu is the exception or the rule, it's citable proof that the "black mage" has access to white magic/reimagining how the jobs can work. So don't stand there and say it's "set in stone the way it is" when it's not. Consider the Yuke race in the Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles series, they are the "black mages" with the highest magic damage, but it also makes the most sense to use cure and life on them because they also have the fastest cast time.

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EVEN IF YOUR ARGUMENT IS TRUE, YOU'RE ONLY TALKING ABOUT GAMES WITH DIFFERENT RULES AND CONTINUITY. As far as Black Mage goes in FINAL FANTASY XIV, it does NOT fit. Please stop trying to use the flexibility of the series as an excuse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

All I'm really trying to do is insist that you open up your (collective) closed minds and realize that maybe classes really can do things differently than they had done in the past (consider Kimari from FFX as well, a synthesized Blue Mage and Dragoon). I'm never going to buy your "the classes/lore never changes" argument, ever; there is plenty of solid evidence debunking it (SAM used to be a tank, now it's a DPS, DRK used to be a DPS, now it's a tank, SMN used to nuke with summons and epic spells, now it's a DoT class (which also nukes with epic summons/spells, but you get my point)).

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Samurai doesn't have much of an identity, only appearing in a few games. Dark Knight has always been tanky to a degree, and Summoner's identity has also been constantly shaky with the only stable thing existing being "summon a big thing or something related to it."

Meanwhile, Lulu still had to dig deep into Yuna's moveset to get her White Magic, so it's not naturally hers. Besides, it's still WHITE MAGIC. Not Black Magic. And there's no evidence that in FFXIV that BLMs are willing or capable of using White Magic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

The developers can justifiably do whatever they damn well please with whichever jobs they see fit, and there could be numerous ways to implement an ability that functions as a raise with a justifiable lore/backdrop that befits Black Mage (necromancy, arcane magic, "aetherial", void magic, the list could go on).

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Guess what? The Devs have already set their lore in stone, and Black Mage... hasn't had a raise counterpart since... well, ever in FFXIV's history. And as far as we know, Necromancy is out of the question, void magic is something specifically being avoided by our Black Mages, Arcane Magic is not a thing for BLM, and "Aetherial" is still not an excuse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Gonna say it again for probably the 20th time in this thread, you can argue with me all you want about the solution to the problem, but there is undeniably 100% a problem.

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No one is saying there's no problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

You say BLM doesn't need raise because it's a caster, then fine, it needs to be removed from the other two for role balance. This is also the title of this thread. However, we have no reason at all to believe they will nerf rez dispenser. So the more feasible solution is to put a raise option on BLM.

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Summoner can get away with it because they don't use Swiftcast as a movement tool like black mage does, and because they do damage over time as a main mechanic rather than as fluff damage. Red mage can get away with it because they don't even use Swiftcast; Dualcast gives them spells in pairs already. There are also lore reasons, but you've already demonstrated you really don't care. Verraise and Resurrection existing is not a balance issue. Black mage doesn't get a variant for all the reasons I've already listed that you don't care about because you want the black mage to be able to do literally everything in the game. What's next, enmity gains for tanking?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

I don't care if Lulu is the exception or the rule, it's citable proof that the "black mage" has access to white magic/reimagining how the jobs can work. So don't stand there and say it's "set in stone the way it is" when it's not. Consider the Yuke race in the Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles series, they are the "black mages" with the highest magic damage, but it also makes the most sense to use cure and life on them because they also have the fastest cast time.

All I'm really trying to do is insist that you open up your (collective) closed minds and realize that maybe classes really can do things differently than they had done in the past (consider Kimari from FFX as well, a synthesized Blue Mage and Dragoon). I'm never going to buy your "the classes/lore never changes" argument, ever; there is plenty of solid evidence debunking it (SAM used to be a tank, now it's a DPS, DRK used to be a DPS, now it's a tank, SMN used to nuke with summons and epic spells, now it's a DoT class (which also nukes with epic summons/spells, but you get my point)).

The developers can justifiably do whatever they damn well please with whichever jobs they see fit, and there could be numerous ways to implement an ability that functions as a raise with a justifiable lore/backdrop that befits Black Mage (necromancy, arcane magic, "aetherial", void magic, the list could go on).

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And here's the real problem with your argument as a whole. You don't pay attention to anything other than what you want. If you wanted to cite a good example of a black mage healing, you should have chosen BLM/SCH from FINAL FANTASY XI, and even then you'd be debunked because literally all the healing came from scholar as a support job and how Light Arts worked. Your Yuke example is also a bad one because Yukes throughout the FINAL FANTASY Crystal Chronicles series were the best at magic as a whole, not black or white in particular. In short, do not argue lore with me; you will lose.

By the way, the only time samurai was ever designed as a tank was in FINAL FANTASY XI, and guess what? It was treated as a DPS instead and ninja became a tank. Samurai in FINAL FANTASY as a whole isn't even a real samurai. Real samurai limited their sword strikes to iaijutsu and fought hand-to-hand or with other weapons most of the time. Have you ever heard of aikido? That's samurai martial arts.

When looking at the black mage job as a whole throughout the series' history, they have literally only ever had support one time, and that was the Temper spell in FINAL FANTASY. They have literally never had a way to resurrect. Does that mean they can't? No. What it does mean is that it does not fit their job description. Not even the necromancer job resurrected anything. Does that mean they can't? No. Necromancy is already well-established in the lore of the thaumaturge class in this game. Black mages do not resurrect because their magic is inherently destructive, which makes things dead. Even reanimation would be something that a black mage would not typically do, no matter how far you stretch what lore we already have.

And that's without looking at gameplay, which you're so fond of doing, by the way. The black mage in FINAL FANTASY XIV is designed to be a turret. You stand in one spot and never stop casting. You have Between the Lines and Aetherial Manipulation to move, and you have ways to cast spells instantly for when you don't have those. That's it. You otherwise do not move. Moving is a DPS loss. Because of how Enochian works (lasts as long as Astral Fire/Umbral Ice is up), a black mage is required to continue casting Fire/Blizzard spells. If you're wasting time and a movement tool on a Raise variant, you could sacrifice your life and/or your major damage boost. That is not true of summoner or red mage because they do damage differently.

So, because we all know you don't actually care and just want black mages to do literally everything in the game, here's a short list.

• Black mages do not Raise in FINAL FANTASY XIV because it would make them lose most of their ability to do damage and/or move, which would typically lead directly to the black mage dying or losing Enochian.
• Black mages do not Raise in general because they've literally never had that ability ever.
• Black mages do not Raise without help from another type of magic, and even then that's magic that's not inherent to the black mage ever.
• Black mages do not Raise because black magic is inherently destructive, so justifying a Raise by "void magic" logic is nonsensical, not logical, especially because void magic itself is also inherently destructive.

The real problem with black mages in this game is just the fact they don't do enough damage, and the developers have already stated that that will be addressed in 4.2. If you really want the DPS Disciple of Magic jobs balanced, you should be okay with black mages doing the most damage and not getting a Raise variant, because then you have a choice between utility or more damage. Red mages need DPS help as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Summoner's identity has also been constantly shaky with the only stable thing existing being "summon a big thing or something related to it."

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Actually, summoner has always been an offensive/support mage-type. I checked a while back for another debate.

You don't pay any attention to anything but what you want, too. Having raise on the job literally won't even affect you, it will only affect those of us who will most likely be forced into playing SMN. Again. So don't pretend like you're somehow holier than me because you vehemently don't want raise on the job for absolutely selfish reasons (or meaningless ones) as well. To reiterate again, I don't even really want raise on the job, I want the role to be balanced, and raise on the job is the most likely scenario with which to achieve that. If said balance doesn't even affect you, then why are you arguing with me about it?


Also, you really can't use lore as your argument and then cite lore as your counter-argument, that's pretty circular logic (with regards to your suggestion that the different games have different continuities. Of course they do, but the point is that the FF series is not "set in stone" which is what was asserted before.)


And nope, try again. The devs have been "set in stone" about plenty of things that they have then switched stance on. One good example would be alliance raid roulette. yoship saying back in July (read: before savage/ultimate prog even began) that BLM doesn't need raise is practically irrelevant at this point, particularly if we as a community continue to assert why it is necessary to balance the role. They want (and repeatedly ask for) our feedback.


Furthermore, in case you haven't seen, there are about 15 RDMs that have cleared unending coil, and upwards of 30 SMNs. There are exactly TWO BLMs who have done it, and with neck-and-neck statistics with the RDMs that have. I won't say that RDM doesn't need adjustments (in my opinion, particularly to Embolden, but that's a topic for another thread), but you certainly can't say that it's less viable than BLM in any way, shape, or form.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

You don't pay any attention to anything but what you want, too. Having raise on the job literally won't even affect you, it will only affect those of us who will most likely be forced into playing SMN. Again. So don't pretend like you're somehow holier than me because you vehemently don't want raise on the job for absolutely selfish reasons (or meaningless ones) as well.

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Having raise is a useless button that wouldn't help the class. I don't want more useless buttons on a class that's already stuck with at least four (Sleep, Freeze, Blizzard II and Scathe) and I do not think for a moment that having raise would make Black Mage better. We'd be the worst candidate for a Raise, because we don't have ANYTHING in our kit to support it, and it'd actually detract massively from our kit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

And nope, try again. The devs have been "set in stone" about plenty of things that they have then switched stance on. One good example would be alliance raid roulette. yoship saying back in July (read: before savage/ultimate prog even began) that BLM doesn't need raise is practically irrelevant at this point, particularly if we as a community continue to assert why it is necessary to balance the role.

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You and a handful of people are the only ones asserting this stance. Nobody else. Alliance raid roulette was necessary because of new players trying to gear and get glamour and enjoy the story. But Raise simply can't work on a Black Mage, because it's a waste of a cast on a class that's already having a hard time prioritizing classes. It wouldn't fit the gameplay, the lore nor the theme of Black Mage.

I read your sentence but all I can see is "Raise simply cannot work on Black Mage because I have no imagination". Notice how you say "waste of a cast" when I am a vehement advocate of it NOT being a cast but rather an off-GCD ability balanced by a long recast (which you might know if you actually read any of my responses), and your statement saying it wouldn't fit the gameplay is half-baked at best; hardcasting raise on SMN barely fits the gameplay either but it's still doable in an emergency situation, which is the very definition of progression, which is the whole reason why I'm arguing with literally everyone in this thread in the first place.


You gave no solid refute to necromancy, and only a weak refute to void magic and arcane/aetherial magic (note how the conjurer questline centers around the "unnatural" nature of resurrection, no reason that BLM can't fit right in). Seriously. Avoiding "void magic" sounds perfectly reasonable until we are able to control it, or what have you, see also: the devs can justifiably do whatever they want. This includes a raise skill on BLM.

Edit: Discovered your edits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

I read your sentence but all I can see is "Raise simply cannot work on Black Mage because I have no imagination". Notice how you say "waste of a cast" when I am a vehement advocate of it NOT being a cast but rather an off-GCD ability balanced by a long recast (which you might know if you actually read any of my responses), and your statement saying it wouldn't fit the gameplay is half-baked at best; hardcasting raise on SMN barely fits the gameplay either but it's still doable in an emergency situation, which is the very definition of progression, which is the whole reason why I'm arguing with literally everyone in this thread in the first place.

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Huh, I thought it was admirable to grow out of giving classes the first idea on the top of one's mind just because it's cool. Welp, I need to learn to adult better! [/s]

Even if it was an oGCD, it's still a terrible idea, primarily because Black Mages have to tunnel vision to keep their rotation. Black Mages already aren't a good candidate for Mana Shift, even if they have the ability to, what makes you think they'd work for rezzing as well?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

You gave no solid refute to necromancy, and only a weak refute to void magic and arcane/aetherial magic (note how the conjurer questline centers around the "unnatural" nature of resurrection, no reason that BLM can't fit right in). Seriously. Avoiding "void magic" sounds perfectly reasonable until we are able to control it, or what have you, see also: the devs can justifiably do whatever they want. This includes a raise skill on BLM.

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You are really stubborn, aren't you? Very well.

As far as the lore is concerned, we have no idea if Necromancers are even a thing. There's whispers, there's hints but there's no clear connection to Black Mage, or even possibility by Spoken. Throw that excuse out of the yard.

Meanwhile, Conjury and by extension White Magic are based on the will of the Elementals. Do not even think of using that as an argument for Black Mages getting raise. Throw that out of the yard too.

Arcane and Aetherial magic aren't hinted at either, and Black Mage is not built from that either. Out of the yard.

Shatotto has not been seen using Void Magic and nor has Lalai, our teacher. In fact, the Black Mages we all have fought and are "bad" Black Mages are Void Magic users, as if they're supposed to the an example of why Void Magic is a bad idea. (This includes the Defiant and Memeupo, the 1.0 Thaumaturge teacher). Hell, that's also why Mhach fell, the overindulgence in Void Magic. Even if Black Mages COULD use void magic, everything is against anyone on our side wanting to use it, period. The game has done NOTHING but show the harm of using Void Magic, from the Black Mages we've seen, or seeing the fate of Mhach.

Out. Of. The. YARD.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You'd have the ranged DPS limitbreak in that scenario anyways. And if it's between the Summoner and the Black Mage, you're still going to have the summoner do it, because any caster based AoE damage during the ninja phase is fluff damage, and the black mage will kill the Giant more expediently.

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Not really, when I was progging it with 320ish weapons in the raid a meteor was not enough to clear the adds in 1 shot so a tiny bit of aoe dmg was actually a help and I would not really consider it scumbagging

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Not really, when I was progging it with 320ish weapons in the raid a meteor was not enough to clear the adds in 1 shot so a tiny bit of aoe dmg was actually a help and I would not really consider it scumbagging

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I should clarify: Anything beyond 10% of the ninja's health is fluff damage, which a single Foul, Death Flare, or Ahk'mourne will cover. As Ilvl increases it's pretty much anything beyond 5%. It's 100% scumbagging to do anything more than that when the giant still has damage to deal, but to be honest, Hali, the Ninjas, and the Golem should all be within aoe range of each other, so you can 'pretend' to be DPSing the giant with flares. ;)

Just wanted to clarify because I thought that LB3 would be enough and then surprise!

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Originally Posted by Llugen

You don't pay any attention to anything but what you want, too.

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You're funny. You're also obviously upset that you have literally no good arguments at all. You claim we don't listen, but we do. That's how we know your points are bogus at best.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Having raise on the job literally won't even affect you, it will only affect those of us who will most likely be forced into playing SMN. Again. So don't pretend like you're somehow holier than me because you vehemently don't want raise on the job for absolutely selfish reasons (or meaningless ones) as well. To reiterate again, I don't even really want raise on the job, I want the role to be balanced, and raise on the job is the most likely scenario with which to achieve that. If said balance doesn't even affect you, then why are you arguing with me about it?

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Next you'll be preaching to us about why machinists should be tanks, paladins should be healers, dark knights should be gatherers, and blue mages should be something other than clowns. You don't have any idea at all what will or will not affect me or any other given player, so to quite EllieShadeflare, "OUT OF THE YARD." Who died and made you Hydaelyn, huh? I'll argue if I darn well please, thanks. First and foremost, in fact, no one is forcing you to play anything, including this game. If you want to play black mage, then play black mage. Screw everyone who demands you play something else for any reason ever. Screw the meta, because it's not useful for anything but World firsts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Also, you really can't use lore as your argument and then cite lore as your counter-argument, that's pretty circular logic (with regards to your suggestion that the different games have different continuities. Of course they do, but the point is that the FF series is not "set in stone" which is what was asserted before.)

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Really? Then why are there always chocobos, moogles, a Cid, and so forth? PROBABLY BECAUSE THE LORE IS SET IN STONE. PAY. ATTENTION. And by the way, the fact you're even calling my argument "circular logic" demonstrates you failed to grasp my point to start with, which was this: even if necromancy is a thing we should be capable of from a lore standpoint, we don't do it because we aren't evil people. See also EllieShadeflare's point on void magic. We don't use it because we're not the bad guys trying to bring about a second War of the Magi. Again, PAY. ATTENTION.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

And nope, try again. The devs have been "set in stone" about plenty of things that they have then switched stance on. One good example would be alliance raid roulette. yoship saying back in July (read: before savage/ultimate prog even began) that BLM doesn't need raise is practically irrelevant at this point, particularly if we as a community continue to assert why it is necessary to balance the role. They want (and repeatedly ask for) our feedback.

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I'm pretty sure they want feedback that is actually intelligent. Giving a Raise variant of any sort to a job that literally should not be using such a thing is not that. Think before you offer advice, especially on topics you obviously don't understand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Furthermore, in case you haven't seen, there are about 15 RDMs that have cleared unending coil, and upwards of 30 SMNs. There are exactly TWO BLMs who have done it, and with neck-and-neck statistics with the RDMs that have. I won't say that RDM doesn't need adjustments (in my opinion, particularly to Embolden, but that's a topic for another thread), but you certainly can't say that it's less viable than BLM in any way, shape, or form.

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I've seen, I just don't care. Dark knight's considered to be the worst tank right now, but guess what job was used to clear the Unending Coil of Bahamut (Ultimate) for the first time? Maybe instead of getting wrapped up in all this stupid min/maxing, you should just play what you enjoy and not let yourself be "forced" to play a job you don't want to play.

Now, literally all you have done that I've seen is complain that you can't do literally everything on a single job. You have zero ground upon which to stand, every point you've tried to make has been utterly obliterated, and yet you continue to post here as if you have something intelligent to contribute. But you don't. You don't understand lore. You don't understand gameplay. You don't understand balance.

What would actually help is if black mages did the most damage of the DPS Disciple of Magic jobs, red mages did more damage so they could be on par with summoners, and summoners were left alone. There's no need to add utility to a job that's only ever had utility one time in the entire series, especially if black mages do the most damage and we then choose between red mage's Vercure or summoner's Contagion/Radiant Shield.

No, I don't think Black Mages should get a rez. Personally, I don't think Summoners should have one too and have it a Scholar ability only. But if they keep it, that's fine. It is what it is.

My 2 gil.

I'm hesitant to even start talking in this thread again lest I be screamed at for "not understanding" my main job in raid of four years by people who barely play the class, but since I'm masochistic I suppose, here goes!



If you have to "tunnel vision" to keep up your rotation of "spam Fire IV and recharge when necessary" then I have bad news for you....

If you've been keeping up with the other threads, I've been highly recommending reliable proc strategies, which would provide ample opportunity for off-GCD weaving, helping with both mana shift and this theoretical raise (and aetherial manipulation and no clipping for throwing up other buffs). Again read that adding raise alone to BLM will certainly not fix the class, and that there is a LOT of other attention that it needs. (further, I mean no disrespect, but you mentioned in the other thread that perhaps there are "more things for you to learn about BLM" from Zuzu and that you are still progressing through deltascape savage. Perhaps keep this in mind before fighting with me so staunchly about the balance of the class; I'm not the best BLM in the world certainly, but I have been around the block on it. A lot.)

Furthermore, your necromancy refute is STILL weak. "We don't know anything about it", well mate, WE GON LEARN TODAI (read: the devs can do whatever they damn well please). They could decide to come up with ANYTHING they want to justify it, and it would definitely be more satisfying than just throwing the resurrection skill on the job with no backstory at all. Also, not sure what "yard" you're referring to, but if I'm going to be called out for telling people to "go away", then you are going to get called out for it, too.

Tell you what, you're right: I don't care about the lore of BLM, if that's what you want to think. That's not really true, but since you don't seem interested in actually reading what I'm saying, it might as well be. What I'm trying to explain to you is that lore cannot get in the way of balance, and the lore of BLM "not being able to raise" is absolutely getting in the way of balance right now with the other two casters and their raise ability. IF they decide to remove them from the other two or balance them somehow, then everything is hunky-dory again. Sadly, it looks like that is not likely to be the case, so we collectively need to imagine a way to make a creative raise skill that makes sense on BLM (so, NOT a GCD like the other jobs, otherwise you could just enter Umbral Ice and then triplecast > raiseraiseraise, and that is NOT what we want).




....literally everything Ceallach said is nonsense and borderline flaming. "we listen" so, saying directly about raise being a cast because that's totally what I've been preaching this whole time (note the sarcasm). Suggesting that MCH should be able to tank because the caster role is off-balance is utterly non-sequitur. A for effort, though, I suppose. Count that there have been 37 DRKs that have cleared unending coil and two BLMs, this is because although DRK isn't "meta" it is CERTAINLY playable and capable of dealing with mechanics (plus, this has nothing to do with this thread, the tank role has zero access to raise, so it's "balanced" on this front). Since you don't play in the highest end content, maybe you haven't personally experienced being "forced" to play another job, but don't tell me that I haven't been forced and that it's not a very big issue with this game right now. And lastly, there you go again citing lore as both your argument and your counter-argument, but please, tell me more about how I'm the one who doesn't understand the issues with BLM in FFXIV.

That is a bit of a stretch however, because BLM is playable and capable of doing ultimate too, frankly would be interested to see how many ppl went DRK after lucrezia's kill, since before their kill the mere thought of a DRK in it was thought as a lunacy.
On the dps front the fight has been cleared with some extremely odd compositions, which means that the real bottleneck of the fight is not the comp but how you play in it, which is something lucrezia said too admist other things

As an extension of my previous post, I'm going to quote these here from page ~29 of this thread, because tfw the highest ranked BLM in the game (first to clear unending coil on the job) agrees with me:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sfia

I can understand the viewpoint that lore-wise, BLM should NOT get a raise. From a balance standpoint however, it requires it, OR something of equivalent value as a defensive utility. And because raise is so powerful a tool, any ability with a benefit that matches it would be very difficult to implement and balance.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sfia

There are always ways to work around that issue, put it on a timed cooldown and make it instant for example.
It depends what you're looking for. In speedruns defensive utility loses a lot of its value but very few groups operate at a level where that makes a big difference, whereas every raiding team WILL do progression - where defensive utility shines the brightest.
In my opinion, both offense and defense need to be increased. Not increasing defensive utility would lead to issues of its damage needing to be exorbitantly high (read: overpowered) to be in a form worth playing.

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...but please, tell me more about how I'm the one that doesn't understand the job.


@Remedi, if you go to the page, there are currently 37 DRKs who have cleared unending. If anyone ever thought that DRK in it was "lunacy", that is purely because PLD is just REALLY strong defense/support and WAR is basically assumed. However, they cleared it with PLD/DRK, if I recall correctly. Furthermore, odd composition DPS is perfectly fine, like I just mentioned in the other thread, no one is clamoring necessarily for BLM to be meta, just for it to compete on the progression front. You said yourself (I think) that Lucrezia admitted to taking RDM for early prog and then swapping out for MCH later on. Don't we want to avoid that kind of garbo?

Maybe only 2 BLM did UCoB for another reason of not having a Raise ability.
Maybe that fight needs a mobility BLM don't have if they are not excellent ones knowing already where to position perfectly and when.
I'm just saying, I mean it's not a proof, nothing tells us it's the lack of Raise that keep people from playing BLM there. Maybe the few who did it dislike BLM. After all, there is that DRK who done UCoB that said he just likes the class, and we are several to play a class just because we like it, and it's something possible on a low number of players.

Maybe that story of BiS not needing the same materias is boring for most caster players, and they prefered to get rid of their BLM in that regard.

(Very honestly, I would even prefer they only leave Raise to Red Mages, and get rid of it on SMN to offer SMN something else instead that would be worth. Red Mages are about safety, they have high mobility and support via heal and instant raise (and Embolden)).

By odd compositions I mean NIN-less (1 had a SAM for the slash down= and for the DRK it was pretty much lunacy till the kill, because the jobs brings nothing that a WAR can't bring in fact you are 1 raidCD less for the final phase as they said the only advantage they have it dark mind and we can say it is also living dead beign a bit longer than holmgang.

Frankly the fact they brought a DRK to the kill while switching the dps still kinda irks on me because to me it means there was a doublestandard when trying to reach a goal, but I suppose it all was worth it to their strategy which is what really makes the difference.

....and that right there is exactly why that gap should be closed, either by adjusting raise off the caster role, or by giving BLM an option to compete on the front.

@Fannah: Yes, I know the answer to all those "maybe"s because as a member of the raiding community I talk with many of the high-ranked BLMs/SMNs, and you're right, for unending it largely is a movement/damage issue, but closing the gap is critical and I don't think it can be understated. Not having raise on BLM in there was not a dealbreaker at this particular moment, but undeniably it would help bring value to the class.

Lack of raise is just one more reason not to bring BLM, not the ONLY reason. Likewise, the job not having raise is just one element that needs to be fixed not the ONLY element. Not sure why people in this thread can't seem to get that.

I don't speak for them, but I suppose they want other issues fixed instead of uniforming the role first

Well, in a way, if buffing BLM is already planed on 4.2, I believe we should just now wait to see what they prepared, maybe it'll be worth, at least it shows they know there is a problem.

Edit : I hope you did not disliked my "maybe"s, it was just a way of speech, it wasn't said in a mean way.

Edit 2 : Also, yes I believe people overall really want to know they pick Black Mages other than for an animation and style reason. Overall people playing Black Mage think about hurting bad enemies, imo. They even see raise and mobility as a reason/opportunity for them to hurt even more, not to be the same low risk classes.