How to Dragoon per Second: A DPS Paradigm

what does it mean when people say that the DRG has good "burst damage" got sick of playing PLD so i am leveling DRG now. D

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Originally Posted by PogueX

what does it mean when people say that the DRG has good "burst damage" got sick of playing PLD so i am leveling DRG now. D

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Our DPS burst is within the first 2 minute range, then it stay low or so for the next minute, then it bursts again. Like that.

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Originally Posted by Ninjah2r

I'm trying everything you say, (except I don't use cooldowns during meteors, other than that, I try to max out everything, BOTD usage, GK's (545 ss at i203 so that sucks :c) but I seem not to get any higher than 900-910 dps lmao. I have the i205 spear. I'm still struggling to stay alive during the fight because I wasn't present at day 1 when my static raided so I didn't get as much trying as they had and I die naturally.

But it demotivates me quickly lol, seeing all those monk/mch/whatever is in my party, end up with like 1000+ dps rofl.

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I was away for some time from this thread but I'm back now, so I can help with strat. I'm expecting you need help with DPS optimizations during Thordan trial?

For research purpose and I was being curious enough tonight, I can deal around 1480 DPS over 3 minute on dummy with HQ Draco pots of strength.

Weapon was i205.

My stats is as follow :
http://puu.sh/lJg9p/5e43ecc0f2.jpg

Is it possible to throw out 4 GSK permin?

I have 700+ skill speed and the only way to really get 4 per min is to drop Phleb. Usually just do this in dungeons, like Jack was saying, HT-IDC4-IDC4 multidotting.

Unless there's some combination of sch/ast buffs to push way over the normal GCD, but that's not going to be sustainable.

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Originally Posted by Ninjah2r

But it demotivates me quickly lol, seeing all those monk/mch/whatever is in my party, end up with like 1000+ dps rofl.

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The Thordan trial is really finnicky. You can't get a high parse like the one Then has up or the one I have up without the rest of your dps (and mostly the tanks) doing sub-par dps. You enter the last phase sub-1000 pretty much no matter what. From then on, your dps steadily rises. The longer the fight goes, the higher you go up. If you really wanna see how you're doing, check your DPS when standing around for Ultimate End. It should be over 1000, or at least close to 1000. If you're considerably lower than that, an 1100 parse or even a 1000 parse isn't very likely if your MNK and MCH are both ending over 1k.

Dying also has a pretty significant impact on dps, so try not to do that. Mechanics are more important - remember:
Dropping Blood of the Dragon for a while doesn't impact your DPS nearly as bad as being dead for even a fraction of that duration.

Also keep in mind that 8/10 top parses on the fight have an AST feeding them all of the cards to pad higher and place higher on the rankings. Party comp plays a big role.



The breakpoint for 4 gsk per minute with the normal rotation puts your gcd below 2.15, which would cause a whole host of other issues. In order to get +1 gsk per minute, you need to get +1 full combo in that minute. Since BotD comes back just before a third hit of the combo, you need to inject 5 gcds. If you get 25 GCDs in 1 minute currently (which you should be), you need to extend that to 30. 25 in one minute is a 2.4 gcd, hence why we aim for 2.4 gcd. It makes things clean and simple. 30 in one minute is a 2.0 gcd, hence why we don't even consider trying to make this work. Granted, the leeway is such that you can probably pull it off with a 2.05-ish gcd and not screw it up, since you can pull off 3 gsk per minute with a 2.45 gcd (since you only *technically* need to get 22 gcds in 1 minute, which is easily doable, regardless of your sks, and therefore just need 27 gcds to pull it off, which is like a 2.22 gcd, which is *still* far too short to realistically reach).

With single target Arrow or Enhance Arrow, you can pull off the 4gsk per minute *if the buff lasts one minute and is used exactly when your botd starts*. With Enhanced, the breathing room is a lot lighter and it's actually pretty easy to get the extra gsk in, though.


And, as whiskey said, if you want to make it consistent, you need to drop Phleb from your rotation altogether and you'll consistently hit 4/min.

It's been a long time since I've had to do algebra xD but I came up with 1553 skill speed as a number to reach 2.05 gcd

Reverse engineered Dervy's GCD formula

SS = (((GCD-2.50256)/-.01)*26.5)+354

Seems to get close enough on the proof check

The MCH in my static also got some crazy DPS, she usually ends P1 being 2nd on DPS ranking, if I don't get targeted by mechanics a lot I can deal much higher DPS than when I do, that's just how it is.

Other than that it's just simple stuff like try to kill a knight during 2 knight before the sword/shield swap, or at least if your group can't, then use something to minimize movement, SSD/DFD/EJ.

Usually I save whatever cooldowns I have during the Sacred Cross knight before the 2 knight so my party can comfortably kill a sword knight before it swaps.

During Comet Phase, the cooldowns I'm using is BFB, BotD, PS, Jump, LegS, I use SSD if necessary to reach comet circle on the far side but usually this isn't the problem and I use it to travel to the meteor circle at middle.
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2.05 GCD, lol, is it as fast as MNK with GL3 up? More button mashing.

I tried to do 4GSK permin on trash pulls earlier, not much but it's still better to do I guess.

Looking at some Thordan numbers I feel a little short, highest I got was 1040 with a 3 melee setup and me using both LB3 and LB2 (as I'm usually the one to lb, which sucks) it was drg (me), a random nin (who was also one 1k), and my Static mnk who was a little over 1.1k. This is before I got my weapon last night though and called it quits for the night. 4th dps was our (static) smn just under 1k, like 990 or something.

I need to step my game up apparently.

I haven't got to complete the fight yet, but there are a lot of mechanics like the dives, if you got bad rng your # is gonna be lower than the monk or nin that didn't kinda thing. Plus, as Jack mentioned, DPS that get fed cards from Ast are gonna be higher than those without.

@Jack, thanks for replying. It makes sense what you said about 2.22 ish gcd needed to get 4 GK's in there. and it makes completely sense too that it would bring a whole lot of other problems like tp managing.

Just gets me frustrated when my dps is not that high in that fight, I automatically blame my skill / my limited time I have to be better at that fight, because I always feel like underperforming/not doing my best when I look at the numbers.

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Originally Posted by Thendiel

Feel free to translate Dervy's work into French! He says he doesn't mind.



All of the advice on this thread for Thordan has been very good. Here is a video of a strong clear of mine, if it's any help, although my recording quality is poor and I have not included any audio commentary.

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Thank you guys very much for the tips and this video! My DPS has been way low on Thordan, and it seems my main problem is being overly cautious.. but clearly I just need to push myself more. Too afraid of murdering myself on mechanics with jump and losing CDs..

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Originally Posted by raela

Thank you guys very much for the tips and this video! My DPS has been way low on Thordan, and it seems my main problem is being overly cautious.. but clearly I just need to push myself more. Too afraid of murdering myself on mechanics with jump and losing CDs..

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I live by this rule, bad DPS is still better than dead DPS.

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Originally Posted by Greyfrost

I live by this rule, bad DPS is still better than dead DPS.

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This is very true. Even if you're doing stellar DPS, one death causes you to drop by over 10% on average, unless you're raised immediately and it happened just before botd came off cd. Always better to stay alive than try to pump out two extra hits.

Is there a reason you switched the position of DFD with SSD in the advanced opener ?

"H -> [BL+BFB] -> ID -> [IR+BOTD] -> DI -> [DRAC-POT] -> CT -> [PS+ LEGS] -> 4TH -> [JUMP] -> P -> [SSD] -> TT -> [DFD] -> VP -> [LIFES + GK] -> FT -> 4TH -> Repeat"

If I remember correct it was DFD first then SSD , as it is in dervys and your video.

The difference between basic/advanced is in the advance you pop life Surge and GK together so you can fit in SSD while under Potion/B4B. I don't think it really matters whether you pop SSD or DFD first except as it relates to certain fights. (like a3s where if you pop SSD first it comes back in time for wash away) I can say that Jump works well coming after the first 4th hit because then it comes back off cd in around TT/VT later on, whereas if you delayed the jump it shows up at an awkward time between 4th and HT, so it makes it harder to hit the positional in that case (or lose dps from hanging on to it until you don't have a positional attack). Considerations like that effect the rotation, it's just optimization mainly.

Yeah so depending a bit on fight and mechanics, but it was DFD before SSD in the advanced opener for a while, dont know when he switched it up, in the videos for advanced opener it still shows DFD before SSD

I don't know. Dervy's original thread shows SSD > DFD, last time that was edited was August. I remember there being some discussions about optimizing it but last I heard (and it has been at least a month or more) Dervy wasn't too happy with the raid scene so I'm not sure if he's still at it or not.

The order of those two skills comes down to personal preference. I do it DFD>SSD in every fight in the game so far - I'll be in A4 tomorrow and hopefully Thursday but I doubt it'll be any different there. Using it in that order in A3 works just fine for the first wash away for me. After phase change, my combo is always:
CT > [IR] > TT > VT > [Life+BotD] > FT > [Leg+Power] > 4th > [Jump] > [SSD]
(Sometimes I get a heavy thrust off before the wash away, sometimes not, but SSD is always back for it.)

I prefer using DFD first since it makes the combo when DFD comes back cleaner. You end up doing like... Leg+PS > DFD > Jump > SSD > gsk in your gcds there or somesuch, I forget the exact order, but it feels a lot smoother to have DFD slot in *right there* rather than a gcd later, since then it'd be coming off cd where Jump does and you'll have to delay *something* by a considerable amount to fit that gsk before the next 4th hit.


//EDIT yeah, when DFD comes back, the combo becomes:

CT>[Life]>4th>[Leg+Power]>Ph>[DFD]>TT>[Jump]>VT>[SSD]>FT>[gsk]>4th

With DFD coming off cd just after Ph hits and Jump coming off CD just before TT fills. If you shift DFD back a space, then it and Jump will come off-cd at the same spot and you'll overflow your BotD on the 4th at the end of this string or end up delaying 2/3 of your jumps one gcd.

SSD is the more valuable ability so I would prioritize using it first and getting it on cool down before DFD. Under rare circumstances should you use SSD without BOTD, which makes its potency 221 on a 60 second cd and DFD is 250 on a 120s cd.

The exception is if there's some sort of AOE phase that would somehow be affected if you delay DFD a gcd or two.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I don't know. Dervy's original thread shows SSD > DFD, last time that was edited was August. I remember there being some discussions about optimizing it but last I heard (and it has been at least a month or more) Dervy wasn't too happy with the raid scene so I'm not sure if he's still at it or not.

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He's still at it, xD.

Hell yea, grats Jack! Yea it's been like 2-3 months since I went into A3 so memory is a little fuzzy. My attempt at an example of why the rotation may have been altered a bit lol

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Hell yea, grats Jack! Yea it's been like 2-3 months since I went into A3 so memory is a little fuzzy. My attempt at an example of why the rotation may have been altered a bit lol

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Yeah, I finally got my A3 kill with the new static I joined on Monday. I ranked second on my server (off by 10 dps with me forgetting food and not using pots RIP) and in the 86th percentile overall. Felt good for a first kill! I should finally actually be on the leaderboards with a 1-jump A1 and a not-driver A2 this week, as well~ I'm super excited.

And @Zeviand - exactly why I say it's personal preference. The difference is 1 gcd in the long run - it will almost literally never impact how things go. Especially in a fight like A3 - If you're keen on clearing, you hold SSD through add phase, generally, which causes its CD spin to be totally reset when final phase starts. From there, I tend to hold it a bit for magnets when it comes off-cd (not always, but when it comes back just before magnets, I'll hold it the extra 10s or so, just in case). I usually hold DFD for the very first set of magnets, use SSD once when it's back (I use it on the final add set of adds phase) and then hold it for the next magnets, if I'm remembering timings right. My final phase is still a bit sloppy with gsk and other cds, since I pay more attention to mechanics than my botd timer at current.


Oh, another way to look at it:

Jump is 260 or 390 potency - 338 average
DFD is 240 potency
SSD is 221 potency

Generally, you wanna get your highest potency attacks on CD faster so you get more of them in the long run. If, at the very end of the fight, you'll either get +1 DFD OR +1 SSD, getting that DFD is higher net potency gain. Situations where that happens are slim to none, as would be the case of the middle SSD pop, when DFD is halfway done refilling. Happens so rare that one gcd is gonna make or break whether or not you get the extra shot in.

Which is why I say personal preference. :P

just got drg to 60 and this right here is so helpful!

H -> [BL+BFB] -> ID -> [IR+BOTD] -> DI -> [DRAC-POT] -> CT -> [PS+ LEGS] -> 4TH -> [JUMP] -> P -> [SSD] -> TT -> [DFD] -> VP -> [LIFES + GK] -> FT -> 4TH -> Repeat

My rotation was very similar but it wouldn't always be as solid as this as far as GK goes. So thanks op!

Depends on fight, SSD has the least animation lock so whether it is used before or after DFD is dependent on when you expect to reposition for mechanics. I'm of the same opinion as Jack, been using DFD before SSD.

SSD does have less animation lock, yeah!

I have yet to find a fight where it's prudent to not use DFD first, though. In A3S, my old group placed me at 1:30 and stacked rear to bait the initial Protean Wave burst - every pull, I would hit Phleb>DFD just as the pwave markers appear and still have enough time to dodge that and get to 1:30 (using TT and SSD on the way) to never kill my SMN at 3:00. If that's not a narrow enough window to require shorter animation lock, I dunno what would be.

My group was also seeing through third leg on A4S, and I found no reason to alter it there, either. Everything seems to work out the same either way, so meh? You could potentially get Quarantined at your fourth 4th hit, which isn't enough time for SSD or DFD to be back, anyway, so I dunno? All I really noticed was you def wanna save your second gsk until after 4 (I think you lose one no matter what if you're quarantined?) which doesn't really have anything to do with jump order.

one general question: How's our DPS compared to other DPS-classes? I raid togtether with a Ninja and a Summoner. And I don't get their DPS - I'm more close to the bards dps then theirs and I don't know what I can do to improve! I have almost max equip (ilvl207) and know the rotation ( the one in the opening post is still actual?) yet I don't see the good DPS-numbers.

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Originally Posted by Talec

one general question: How's our DPS compared to other DPS-classes? I raid togtether with a Ninja and a Summoner. And I don't get their DPS - I'm more close to the bards dps then theirs and I don't know what I can do to improve! I have almost max equip (ilvl207) and know the rotation ( the one in the opening post is still actual?) yet I don't see the good DPS-numbers.

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You should be infront of the NIN and SMN in single target. For encounters with many targets the SMN will be better of course. Generaly only the Monk should deal more DPS than the Dragoon.
It's also good to fit your rotation to the fight. Sometimes it's just better to do an additional TTT combo instead of DoTs when the boss jumps etc.

Maybe a stupid question, but I want to learn this the correct way right from the start. It's about the bolded part from this section of the OP:

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So delaying your Geirskogul usage and not using it during Combo 3 in the first cycle of your BotD will give you approximately 3 additional seconds to use your 4th ability, granting ample time for it not to drop off whilst handling mechanics.

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Does that mean that after the first cycle, I go back to the 21s rule? Or do I just keep delaying It, skipping Gsk in the 3rd combo in order to keep the leeway on the timer for every BotD duration?

21 sec is really tight, any delays and there's a good chance to lose BotD. You really want about 23 sec unless BotD is about to come back off CD. As it relates to the opener specifically, if you do not use a potion and use BotD before CT [ Dis > (BotD) > CT], then you have enough time to use GK in the 3rd combo (combos 2, 3, and 5). It's just if you use a potion and shift BotD to before Disembowel [ ID > (BotD) > Dis > (pot) > CT] you won't have enough time to use it on the 3rd combo (combos 2, 4 and 5). BotD comes back after the 5th one, then you'd hold GK until B4B comes back up, so you can hit 2 GK under B4B. That's pretty much it.

Thanks. :)

I'm now at i206 but still having ss/tp problems. I'm at 2.43 gcd, so I don't know if I got BiS gear. Anyone have a link to drg BiS as of now?

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Originally Posted by Ninjah2r

I'm now at i206 but still having ss/tp problems. I'm at 2.43 gcd, so I don't know if I got BiS gear. Anyone have a link to drg BiS as of now?

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I have 2.37 gcd and don't have any problems until about 30 sec before 3rd invigorate. You should be popping first invig around the time you hit 2nd BotD. Then the next invig is used on CD, that should last you till close to the 3rd. BiS, iirc, is pretty much all Gordian gear except pants & chest & belt. Obviously including any favorable diadem gear.

Relic weapon is eh.

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Rhongomiant

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Originally Posted by Gaiussenpai

Relic weapon is eh.

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Rhongomiant

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Its ok Ninja and Drg can suffer together.
http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Kannagi

I'm really not sure where they are going with our lance lol Weights haven't changed have they? Because Thordan is weighted better from what i can tell. The gear we have to choose from just isn't sufficient enough to cover the loss of Crit.

As it was pointed out to me, it looks like they might be aiming to do a similar materia melding stage to tip bis in relic's favour at a later stage...but still...bit of a strange choice in base stats imo.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...mining/cy0v35o

Thanks to Sword Scream for figuring this out, but it does seem the relic is higher in regards to strength weight then the Thordan weapon, it's just are we able to juggle the gear to make it worth while, if we can't then the Thordan weapon is still superior in terms of a "gear set" but if we can juggle gear around to make the relic worthwhile and not tanking our sub stats then it is an upgrade.

Hmm...I'm not really sure how to do the calculation properly but my own attempt was as follows:
Relic: 109 str + 10.608 SS (I did: 102 * 0.104 which is the SS amount times the SS weight) + 9.452 Det (Again: 68 * 0.139 which is the Det amount times Det weight) = 129.06

Thordan: 105 str + 15.714 crt + 9.035 det = 129.749

Of course, it probably is wrong as i'm a failure at maths lol I tried to use previous calculation examples to try a very basic/rough go at it.

Apart from this, i'm still leaning towards the Thordan weapon considering what I have currently seems to give me better stat numbers all round then when I did a quick check on Ariyala gear calculator. The lack of crit disturbs me lol also the det seems to be genually lower too :/

Please correct me if i'm wrong though! May need a dummies walkthrough to how to properly calculate the weightings to things ^^;

With the current gear available to us i'm inclined to think the same thing. Haven't had a chace though to play with Ariyala to have a look yet though (stupid work site blockers :'() You've calculated the stats correctly (my maths has come up the same) but your missing weapon damage as i'm pretty sure the i210 has 1 more WD then the i205 which is an extra 10.625 str right there.

However unless we can up the crit on our gear without sacrificing acc (unless you've been bloody luck with diadem drops) then mathmatically the relic is better, until i'm able to play on Ariyala (most likely sonmeone on the forum will do it before me) i don't think we can have a gear setup, (out of ESO/Savage drops) that could validate using it.

Ah, so that's where the extra digits come from - I didn't factor those into it. Thankies.

I haven't played in Diadem that much. Only got a pair of hands which are only just slightly better than the normal glove options (by very little lol) I'm thinking that Diadem farm is the only way (currently) that could help work towards the lack of necessary stats to cover what the relic is missing.

Picking all the crit gear currently available/listed (no Diadem but A3 kill/helm) you can get the following:
str 968, acc 682, crit 791, det 328, ss 535
Adding the Relic (It's not currently on Ariyala yet):
str 1077, acc 682, crit 791, det 396, ss 637

Going by Dervy's Thordan setup:
str 1073, acc 637, crit 803, det 452, ss 604

Or if you have the A4 kill/weapon (Again using Dervy's setup):
str 1077, acc 637, crit 777, det 484, ss 604
(Strange, lodestone has Dervy's str at 1079 - guessing 1079 might be the same for relic?)

Can anyone weigh in with decent possible Diadem alternatives?

I guess, if you're not planning on getting the A4 kill then it's worth going for the relic now, if you want the added WD and don't mind the dodgy secondary stats ^^; Think I might just stick to Thordan though until more relic phases/reveals are made. It'll take a long time yet but my group will keep at Alex until we finally get our A4 kill so i'm happy just aiming for that for now. Shame though, was looking forward to having something to do in-game other than raiding 3-times a week...otherwise I just don't bother logging on...

I'll be doing the same thing, i have no need to rush getting the relic done, perfectly happy with how the Thordan wep fits my set up atm, plus i don't want to farm diadem over and over again to make the relic worth using. I will still get the relic, because later down the line i imagine we will be able to re-stat the thing making crit det build out of it, but still, at this very point the gordian spear is still my goal.

Manipulator will be going down soon and then that lovely, lovely spear.