How to Dragoon Per Second: A DPS Paradigm

Anyone do any math on how much SS affects dot?

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Originally Posted by OmegaStrongtan

In a scenario where I cannot get the position for Wheeling/Fang right and BotD is still on cool down. What is the better choice?

a) suck it up and hit it with penalty.
b) skip wheeling/fang and delay my next Geirskogul.

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the positional is worth 190potency. it's worth delaying your gcd slightly if it means hitting your positional.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Why not use GK if under 20 seconds or so? Shouldn't it only take you like 12-15ish seconds to go through your 4hit combo?

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If you consider that every FT/CT rotation you have to refresh either Phleblotomize or Heavy Thrust that takes more seconds of course. You can risk it you can do 19-20s, but I wouldn't, even because with next gear level increase you won't have 590 of SS like you have now probably.

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Originally Posted by Faltrask

Like.. you're expecting to be using this shitty SS gear for long? Beside, the rotation i posted has only 1 GC every GCD.

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Yes, we will be using this "Crappy" skillspeed for long, as the basic rotation has a requirement of approximately 2.4GCD to use properly. We'll be running with a minimum of 590 Skillspeed, or approximately 560 with 30+ Skillspeed food, until they make critical changes to the job.

Once we've reached that threshold of 590 Skillspeed minimum, we can then invest the remaining stat-slots into Determination and Critical Hit Rating. Currently, we don't have that luxury as we only have one set of i180 gear.

Anyway, the basic rotation Opener and Geirskogul placement has been added into the OP. The rotation was created in mind for easier play and for you to learn how to manage Geirskogul.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Yes, we will be using this "Crappy" skillspeed for long, as the basic rotation has a requirement of approximately 2.4GCD to use properly. We'll be running with a minimum of 590 Skillspeed, or approximately 560 with 30+ Skillspeed food, until they make critical changes to the job.

Once we've reached that threshold of 590 Skillspeed minimum, we can then invest the remaining stat-slots into Determination and Critical Hit Rating. Currently, we don't have that luxury as we only have one set of i180 gear.

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... Alexander coming next week........ you know gear stats?.........no you don't.

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Originally Posted by Faltrask

... Alexander coming next week........ you know gear stats?.........no you don't.

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Okay and what is the point you're trying to make? You still need a minimum of 590 skillspeed, or a GCD of 2.40 for the rotation to work. 2.42 is the bare minimum given absolutely no downtime or micro-second GCD clipping.

EDIT: Gear doesn't dictate how the fundamental rotation is played. It's the rotation that makes the rotation.

(With the exception of niche rotations)

What I mean is that There might NOT be enough gear to get to 590 SS.<-

So, you're basically saying gear is not important, the rotation is important.. but then you say that you must have 590, even when you don't know which gear they tought for drg on next updates?

To reach 590, you have SS in 8/12 (SS+273) piece of equip 170/180, you "hope" that'll be the same with new gear 190+?

Maybe you might need to adapt to the gear they give you.

If Alexander Hard Mode Gear is i190, that doesn't devalue i180 gear entirely. It was also the same with i110 crafted and i130 gear where some crafted pieces (Helm, Belt and Earrings) where far superior than their i130 counterparts in raiding scenarios. It it turns out that the Alexander Gear lacks any Skillspeed gear, then we'll be using our Law gear in certain slots. Example, the Legs.

But, if Alexander hardmode gear is absolutely loaded in Determination, to the point where it can outweigh a 14PPS deficit of not using a Geirskogul (otherwise your BotD will fall off), then the rotation will change and we'll just be absolutely stacked in Determination until we can outweigh that 14PPS deficit.

And that's a lot of Determination and Critical Hit Rating to make up a nearly 60DPS loss, so I really doubt Square Enix will make such a decision.

Thing is we made a rotation based on 590 SS. but what is the gear is 200.. or 210 instead?


I repeat. You need EIGHT pieces of gear (2/3 of total gear set (including body and weapon being by far the most important together with legs)) to get that much SS on a gear level 180.

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

on a 1175 3m parse, my autos were 197 dps, or about 16.7% of my dps

the extra skill speed on top of its benefits for gcd/ph and ht uptime (without a certain amount, they fall off before you refresh)/increased dot damage, reaching the 2.40 plateau lets you comfortably get another geirskogul in your rotation before the next botd is up. it's definitely worth it imo

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no one debates that 2.4 skill speed is nice. 2.3 skillspeed is nice, and 2.2 even nicer. i mean it's a given that 2.4 skillspeed will increase our damage but its only benefits are to HT and Phb uptime. Missing a part of a tick and not getting 15% on your HT is not the end of the world. HT is the weakest skill in our rotation.

what makes it ideal *relative* to crit and det, both of which are approximately 2x stronger than old skill speed at the moment?

Well as I said, we'll have to wait and see what will happen. I sincerely doubt they will completely lower the Skillspeed thresholds, as it appears they've done it on purpose. And who knows? Skillspeed might actually scale DoT damage very well, making that 2.4 threshold very favourable.

It is actually possible to get 3 GKs in and not miss any BotD application and to sustain HT + PH uptime 100% with 2.5GCD, if my model is correct... but it's A LOT harder to play as you get 0.1s leeway not to be hit by latency, mechanics, or GCD clipping, compared to 1.1s, plus GK management is A LOT more complicated and harsher than necessary.

Having said that, the rotation seems to be a lot more smoother with a GCD of 2.4 and it's very likely the development team have created the rotation with this number in mind, that's what I'm trying to say.

I had a dilemma the other day.

An AST put "The Arrow" on me.

Things got weird, fast.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

I had a dilemma the other day.

An AST put "The Arrow" on me.

Things got weird, fast.

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"What...what sorcery is that?"

Complete random but I play on controller and noticed that on the mapping menu you can program macro #98 and macro #99 on to your thumb sticks now. I personal haven't tried it so dunno how it works, but it might be worth noting for extra versatility.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

I had a dilemma the other day.

An AST put "The Arrow" on me.

Things got weird, fast.

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ast cards just ruin everything and throw everything out of whack, it's so confusing lol.

2.40 is not absolute, but it's a good enough range that you'll be comfortable at that level definitely regardless of ping, and it opens up different openers. i'd experiment with lowering skillspeed to get more crit/det, but my gear atm is bis i180 so there's no point; maybe another time after weights are finished.

as for plateaus, here are my findings

at 2.50 gcd, i can consistently do 3 geirskoguls per botd rotation still. it just needs a late cast BoTD before CT and FT PH falls off for a tick at like, 40% chance, HT will be up for its own refresh but it drops for 0.35s during itself; so you can't use an oGCD after HT because the oGCD has a chance of not being buffed by HT during the reapplication. at 2.48 you have more leniency and don't need to last cast botd; you can even use it like i do in my opener, but you need to put it on the late end of disembowel/vorpal at 2.48 skillspeed. just don't get a heart attack when you refresh BoTD at 0s remaining on the buff itself. the bare minimum that i suggest everyone have is 2.47, just for 9 skill bfb (realistically, most people here need 2.46 for that)

then at 2.44 or so you don't need to late cast botd anymore on VT/disembowel, PH fallls off for maybe 0.05s and HT for about 0.1, which is good enough to use oGCDS in. then 2.43 and lower is just comfort. i'll personally try to keep it around 2.42-2.43 depending on alex nm gear, since my opener uses BoTD>IR after ID.

it's at around 2.39 (bis i180 with sksp food) that HT and PH never fall off and are refreshed at 0s duration. at 2.40 (bis 180, no sksp food) they drop for like... 0.03s?

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

0.35s during itself; so you can't use an oGCD after HT because the oGCD has a chance of not being buffed by HT during the reapplication.

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That's one more thing about 2.5GCD I forgot to mention. The same also applies to using an oCD BEFORE HT.

How fast does a DRG run out of TP now? I heard MNKs dont really have TP problems anymore.

i just got geirskogul and man, just when i thought i got the rotation down, this thing screws evertyhing up
how do u guys use this? right after one of the 4th combo? i keep dropping botd if i use it too late

You are not allowed much room for hesitation anymore, yes. To think that I choose to keep DRG because of the slower GCD...lol.

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Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

i just got geirskogul and man, just when i thought i got the rotation down, this thing screws evertyhing up
how do u guys use this? right after one of the 4th combo? i keep dropping botd if i use it too late

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3036772

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Originally Posted by Gardes

How fast does a DRG run out of TP now? I heard MNKs dont really have TP problems anymore.

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Around 3 1/2 minutes with 610 SS/2.40 GCD

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Originally Posted by Dervy

It is actually possible to get 3 GKs in and not miss any BotD application and to sustain HT + PH uptime 100% with 2.5GCD, if my model is correct... but it's A LOT harder to play as you get 0.1s leeway

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my numbers don't agree with you.

Code:

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0        h        bl        b4b            botd timer               
2.5        i        pot                                       
5        d        botd        ir                ---
6.5                                    15 ---BOTD CAST---
7.5        c        ps        leg                14               
10        4th        gk                        16.5               
12.5        p        jump                        14               
15        t        dfd                        11.5               
17.5        t        ls                        9               
20        t        ssd                        6.5               
22.5        4th                                19               
25        h                                16.5               
27.5        i                                14               
30        d                                11.5               
32.5        c                                9               
35        4th                                21.5               
37.5        p                                19               
40        t                                16.5               
42.5        t                                14               
45        t                                11.5               
47.5        4th        gk                        14               
50        h                                11.5               
52.5        i                                9               
55        d                                6.5               
57.5        c                                4               
60        4th        gk        botd falls off after GK                               
62.5        p                                               
65        t                                        botd up @ 66.5

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according to my numbers you have closer to a 4 second leeway for GK reapplication.

http://pastebin.com/2gmaa66B <-huge writeup

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Originally Posted by Outfoxed

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0.1s leeway for HT reapplication, not GK. Should of made it clearer. http://puu.sh/iE2XM/fafa65901c.png Column "C" is the duration remaining on HT when you successfully deal damage to your opponent. As you can see, C2 has 0.1s left on HT when you go and actually damage your opponent. Animation buff delay is awesome sometimes.

Your 2.5GCD GK usage is exactly the same as mine, there's absolutely 0 difference. I never said it was impossible to do so, it just requires a lot more management and "know-how", rather than a simple minded approach which works with 2.4GCD (which is listed on the OP). Well, I did kinda say it was impossible a few pages back... But I made a faulty assumption about 2.5GCD + GK, and I retract that statement. Should of double checked my model before hand.

Now. A fully looped cycle, including GK management lasts 122.5s. This is the point where your entire rotation starts from the beginning again and you're using BotD just before Chaos Thrust.

You can also use the same BotD layout for your 2.5GCD example, with 2.4GCD. So, to get a full loop with both of these, here's the duration and potencies.

2.5 GCD
Potency: 21175
Duration: 122.5s
PPS: 21175/122.5 = 172.8571

2.405 GCD (607ss/i180 geared)
Potency: 21102 (includes %chance to clip a DoT tick)
Duration:117.82
PPS: 21102/117.82 = 179.10371

Even with the DoT clips, the PPS is much higher at max i180 SS than it would be at 2.5GCD. If you get one unbuffed HT, it amounts to 28.05 Potency loss (170*0.15*1.1). That will definitely hurt your overall PPS if you continuously miss out on those and in a full 122.5s cycle, there's 5 HTs being used.

The next argument is something which Aiurily has tested at 2.4GCD. You can actually Pop BotD before Disembowel and use your Drac-Pot before Chaos Thrust. This results in you having a 104+ STR buffed 4th Tier after your Full Thrust, versus a Disembowel. This is significantly more damage. Unfortunately, my model doesn't allow me to calculate the additional Damage I'd gain from using a Drac-Pot during certain parts of the rotation, as my model is based on PPS...

My hard wired version comes out to it being a difference of around 30 DPS, give or take rounded numbers. It's hard to say what the exact number is as I believe SE have also changed some of the coefficients for Strength and Weapon Damage behind the scenes... This is the difference at 2.405 GCD, not a comparison between 2.5GCD, by the way.

As for how I calculated DoT clips before people get confused, I calculated a probability of you clipping a tick, whilst you have your DoT on your enemy. The closer you reapply your DoT to a value of 3, the greater the chance you have of clipping your DoT tick. The actual math I use is (DoT_Duration - Animation)/3. This will give me a percentage, which I multiply by one DoT tick, then subtract it from the overall DoT potency. It's an average, not an exact value, but it's good to calculate the average PPS.

So yes, the math does check out that at 2.405 GCD, you're doing significantly more PPS. As for the numerical DPS value (which we're all focused on...) we still need to figure out how Skillspeed affects DoT ticks, as well as Critical Hit Rating and how Determination scales Auto-Attacks. And you are correct, we don't know what Alexander Hardmode gear will look like.

But this is a guide for 3.0, not 3.01. Once Alexander Hits and we evaluate the gear differences, plus when we have more knowledge on Skillspeed, Crit and Determination, then we can make a lot more accurate and calculated assumptions for what the rotation will be like and of course, the guide will be updated for then.

But as I said previously, even if it is possible to get the rotation going with 2.5GCD, the numbers add up to the developers designing the rotation around 2.4 GCD. If Alexander gear is i180 and has more Determination, I could probably see us going down to 2.45 GCD, as gear is just absolutely loaded with Skillspeed at the moment.

So am I to understand the new ideal rotation for Dragoon is one that's pretty much impossible with the tiniest bit of latency?

I tested out Train Your Dragoon pretty extensively in 2.55 to test the benefits of the double off-GCD and found that without a doubt it's a DPS loss on average if you get one latency tick anywhere during the opener or the time it repeats, with fights expected to last 10-14 minutes.

Double off-GCDs simply are not feasible unless you have literally a perfect connection to the server. To use double off-GCDs so extensively in the opening rotation is creating multiple opportunities for massive DPS loss, especially with this game's latency problems and DRG's issue specifically with abilities like the jumps sometimes lagging and animation locking you for 1s in to something that never casts.

This just seems like theory crafting for the most part from people with perfect connections, on a rotation that is very likely to not be possible with latency. I'd like to see an actual workable rotation come out that priorities consistency and compatibility with latency over theory crafting that doesn't hold up at all in a latency based environment.

Question for you DRGs out there, would you say level 60 DRG has fallen in the LB priority department? In ARR it was the defacto melee LBer IMO, but with how sensitive this BotD system looks (currently leveling DRG) I'm gonna guess NIN has gained that honor? Or would there be pieces you could skip in favor of LBing in an optimal way (like skipping a FT combo in ARR)?

If it's a LB3 fight I do it anyway because seeing Dragonsong Dive is worth the DPS loss on the parse. :>

As for optimum, dunno.

Think it'll be easiest for NIN, regardless of who loses the most damage in the end.

Still, if you blow your BotD for any reason, you're almost an ARR goon anyway. And it's gonna happen.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Question for you DRGs out there, would you say level 60 DRG has fallen in the LB priority department? In ARR it was the defacto melee LBer IMO, but with how sensitive this BotD system looks (currently leveling DRG) I'm gonna guess NIN has gained that honor? Or would there be pieces you could skip in favor of LBing in an optimal way (like skipping a FT combo in ARR)?

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Imo yes. It should be NINs job now.
I would still do LB3 for a MNK though, since we can get back BotD faster, if we have its CD ready.
But yes, NINs should do it and my FCs NINs are alreay doing it in place of DRGs.

dragonsong dive is the coolest melee LB, so yeah

but yeah it's definitely really rough for DRGs to LB now compared to NIN. MNK as well because of the demo change

Is there currently any point in holding any of our oGCD/buff to line up with other skills/cooldowns in 3.0? Aside from the obvious Power Surge+Jump. I don't think anything has changed, but the CD have stopped lining up like they did back in 2.55 at base skillspeed so I'm having some troubles. Blood for blood best used after HT, that's all I guessed.

Yeah. Geirskogul is another skill that comes into mind. It doesn't really matter when you use Geirskogul, as long as you're fitting in 3 per minute.

Geirskogul is a special case. I messed around on the dummy and ascertained that I can shoot Geirskogul three times (without overlapping BotD cooldown) immediately or almost immediately, at 2/3 of the CD, and the last one the very second before it comes up (and consuming it). Looking at your first post now pretty much confirms that this is the correct way to cycle it. I'm relieved I don't have to worry about having to fit two in each BFB, though.
I was actually more interested in Jumps/Internal release - I should still pop them as soon as possible, or is there a better way to use them now?

Jump is always buffed by an ability. Either IR + SP, BL, or all 3, as long as you pop them all instantly. The placement of it is fine, by the looks of it. I might make a time-lapsed Spreadsheet like what Kreitor did for the bard, but for us Dragoons, and put it on the OP, so we can all see the timings, durations and how everything lines up.

Anyone know what is the ACC cap for Bismarck EX and Ravana EX? The bigger issue is with Ravana EX since we will have to attack from the front at times, and this while maintaining approximately 590 SS (560 + 30 food buff).

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Jump is always buffed by an ability. Either IR + SP, BL, or all 3, as long as you pop them all instantly. The placement of it is fine, by the looks of it. I might make a time-lapsed Spreadsheet like what Kreitor did for the bard, but for us Dragoons, and put it on the OP, so we can all see the timings, durations and how everything lines up.

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That would be sweet. I was trying to analyze the timing for each of the cooldowns during the dummy parsing, but it's hard to do it without either having already a firm grasp of the rotation (I'm really slow to learn) or being able to record the fight (which I could try as soon as I get to try shadowplay).

More than 540 from the front. 0 misses so far with 555 Accuracy.

EDIT: This is Ravana btw. Usually, the accuracy for the next tier of raids is the tank accuracy of the previous set of raids. So 550 was Front for T13 I believe? So Ravana/Bismarck should be around the same.

EDIT 2: Just missed on a Moon at 555 acc

just for reference, at 2.39 gcd ish is when PH and HT will never drop with 100% gcd uptime. it drops for fractions of a second at 2.40

Parsing on a dummy is one thing, but does anyone else feel like many of these fights are designed to just screw us over? so many insta turns on dungeon bosses and Bismark Extreme... forget about it, so much downtime.... I find it hard to parse where I feel I should be at. any thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Dervy

More than 540 from the front. 0 misses so far with 555 Accuracy.

EDIT: This is Ravana btw. Usually, the accuracy for the next tier of raids is the tank accuracy of the previous set of raids. So 550 was Front for T13 I believe? So Ravana/Bismarck should be around the same.

EDIT 2: Just missed on a Moon at 555 acc

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Heads up, I've missed at ~570 accuracy from the front on Ravana EX.

572-576 is the sweetspot then. My OT DRK had 0 misses at 576 Acc and yes, he did disable Grit.

so pretty much this is my experience with geirskogul.

you may get 3 geirskoguls per minute.

geirskogul casts are extremely flexible in where you place them. maximizing potency per second with geirskoguls is simply impossible because BotD is too gating of a resource to permit more than 3 casts a minute while the cooldown allows for 6 a minute.

geirskogul may be withheld until the dragoon deems that it is an appropriate time to use it. so long as we dont go over 30 seconds or hit 0 seconds.

meaning that there is no set time to use the skogul. i keep hearing people toss out which combo numbers geirskogul should be tossed out after. the truth is, is that it is dependent on the fight. for example the boss of the fractal continuum will require that you delay your geirskoguls for when the adds line up and you may land a geirskogul hitting multiple of the adds.

it does not matter whether you cast geirskogul after combos 1,3,5 or 2,4,5. so long as you get 3 in, you are safe. of course this takes things a minute at a time and there are times where you can not be so casual with your geirskoguls. (dps checks, boss about to die)

on a dummy, the decision point for geirskogul is immediately after the 4th hit of our combos aka combos 1,3,5. on a dummy the question is "can i cast it with BotD falling off". in practice there are two decision points: 1) "can i cast it" and 2) "when should i cast it".

otherwise skogul is very flexible. i can cast it after the 4th hit of my combo, but i might very well decide to delay it another 3 GCDs in anticipation of add phase. example, in t10 you may decide not to cast it on imdugud and wait 2 or 3 GCDs/backload your geirskoguls into combos 1/4/5 which would allow you to condense 3 geirskoguls into a 30 second span without any dropoff. getting it off on combos 4/5 and the 1st combo of BotD 2 would allow you to burst AoE damage quite well

also, with a 2.5 gcd, it's almost a necessity that you cast geirskogul on combos 1,4,5 simply because skoguling on 3 gives you very little leeway to do anything.

usage of the 3 geirskoguls is as follows

gk1-may be used anytime prior to 4th hit of combo 3 without loss of BotD (though it's possible to delay further while limiting your grace period)
gk2-may be used anytime prior to 1st hit of combo 5 and never before the 4th hit of combo three
gk3-may be used anytime you want in combo 5 prior to BoTD coming off cooldown though too late will limit flexibility in your geirskogul casts in the second iteration of BotD

the best dragoon will delay geirskogul for when mechanics necessitate it (incoming add phases) or frontload geirskoguls (combos 1,3,5 or even just doing it on combos 1 and 2 and letting it drop) during a dps check/burn phase.

*note: does not take into account buffs. but for the opening rotation, you likely wont want to get geirskogul in seeing as it's our second weakest oGCD ability after legsweep