Stating an opinion about how you feel is one thing. I feel this game lacks a certain flair. It needs more colored chocobos. What the OP and what you Skye as a representative of the OP are saying, based on the OP's own words is that the world of Eorzea and its lore is lessened with every entry of non-native characters. The OP doesn't want Cloud to overshadow "our" story. Why would he? Lightning will show up for a short quest line and then vamoose. It is not as if she appears during the whole game. It does not lessen this game to have a homage to games past. Yes, I understand the difference between a nod and a salute.
What makes this a ridiculous thread is that you assume the Devs will do anything to change what already has been said as absolute. You call me a defeatist and a submissive. I am a tactician. I do not fight in battles I know I cannot win. I do not make demands from an authority I cannot even begin to understand. This thread is unique but so is a broken fork. That does not make it useful.
In the beta forums people complain about the Limit Break system and how as it is, ruins the game. It is no different than this thread. The reintroduction of old friends does not ruin a moment. The perception of the individual is what ruins it. So yes, you and the OP and Red and every other Eorzean is entitled an opinion. Try not to waste it on things you cannot change and use it for something you can. Go to the beta forums and test and post your findings. Not complain about what hasn't even been implemented yet.
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07-11-2013, 02:16 PMRubieus
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07-11-2013, 02:40 PMSkyeWindbinderThe thing of it is, it is the OP's opinion that putting huge starring characters from other Final Fantasy games into FF14 would add a bit of "jump the shark" flair to the game and take away from the magic of the characters that exist in this universe, even if a little bit, by pandering to fan service by adding those form other Final Fantasy games. And it's not like the very thought doesn't have it's points, as he explained his opinion in a coherent and intelligent way. And I am inclined to agree with it, just as others are inclined to think otherwise. It's your opinion that adding a huge name character like Cloud into the story would likely not add a cheesy flair to it. And you explained your reason why you feel that way. The thing is, neither opinion is right or wrong, as they are both opinions. (although I think the OP backed his up a bit better, but then again, that also is an opinion)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubieus
There is nothing ridiculous about this thread, or even assuming that the devs would act according to opinions. Yes, it's highly unlikely that the devs would change their mind on this subject. But you seem to be forgetting two very important things:
1. It's not like devs have never changed their minds on something in an MMO due to what fans say. For instance, in SWTOR, fans made an outcry at the former name of jedi consulars (they were going to be called jedi "wizards"). The devs read the forums, and decided to change the name. So yes, it does happen, despite what your words seem to be implying.
2. The OP is, as I said before, stating his opinion on the subject. And, as I said before, that's what the forums are for. There is no rule that says that one must only state their opinion if it's popular, or if it will definitely get the devs to change their minds about something, again, despite your beliefs to the seemingly otherwise.
LOL No, you are not a tactician. I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but you're really not. (I think you should look up that word, btw) You're simply someone trying to play forum director, trying to tell people what they should and shouldn't make a thread about. And not only are you completely not qualified to do that (obviously), in this case you are also dead wrong. Because the OP is using the thread to do exactly what the people who made this thread made it for. No, they did not hire you to play forum manager, nor would they, given your flawed, ahem, "tactics" (lol) when approaching a thread like this you don't agree with. To be truthful, the OP could make a thread expressing why he thinks Lalafells should be able to shoot lightning out of their eyes when they say the word "Honey Bun", and you still wouldn't have a leg to stand on telling him his thread had no right to be here. Because it does. It's his opinions about the direction of the game, and whether you agree with them or not, they belong here. Because that's what this place is for. Again, if you really have a problem with that, you should just stay away from the forums. Because people are going to be posting things you don't agree with a lot. People post things I don't agree with a lot as well. But I don' tell them their thread is "pointless" or "shouldn't be here". Because if I did, I know I would be completely wrong. -
07-11-2013, 03:04 PMRubieus
Let it not be said that I did not try to see the convoluted thoughts of a free thinker. I sat for a moment and thought about how easy it would be to just make a ton of threads about how I think the game should work and what I think they should do about certain aspects of the game. But my sanity just wouldn't let me. You keep repeating the same keywords and yet you don't even see it. Why is it that you have to try so hard? Your opinion is is not sacred. It will be subjugated and ridiculed and yet you continue to defend it as if it protects you.
The only thing you have said thus far that I agree with is that neither of our opinions are right or wrong. But even that is flawed. You laugh at me because I am a self-proclaimed tactician. Yet I do not deny any of your accusations save one. I am not now nor have I ever been or wanted to be a forum "overlord." I am however tired of seeing fruitless threads. Here I am, thinking I might save you and your op a moment in time. So that you may find something more beneficial to use it on.
Yet here we are, on one side. The defenders of canon and lore. How ironic is it that you are defending the same lore that was turned on it's head because the game needed a reboot. The same lore that brought forth a dragon years too early just so the devs could have an viable lore-worthy reason to destroy the world as we know it so they could reboot. How's that for canon? Your exercise in comparisons need working on however. Jedi-Wizards... Of course that was going to be changed. That in itself breaks Star Wars canon and lore. So in a sense, they were just putting it back as it was suppose to be.
Eorzea however has been reborn. Any and all lore hence forth is as it should be. Whatever the developers want it to be. No amount of posting, complaining or rallying will change it. Why? I don't know. But I think it has something to do with fun.
Perhaps fun trumps dusty old books. I mean, you are playing a game called Final Fantasy. What else is there except fan-service? You have magic, mystery. Great character concepts and moogles. Yet none of it is in jeopardy of being ruined simply because the devs introduce characters from realms outside of Eorzea. It was never about what should or could. It was always about "Fun."
Now I am going to go back to having fun. You can stay here and get your petitions ready and your big banners flying. Get your catch phrases prepared.
"Say no to Fan-service." "Canon or GTFO!" and my personal favorite "Aerith died, leave her that way!"
Take your pick. See you in ARR. -
07-11-2013, 03:43 PMSkyeWindbinderI'm not defending anything, least of all an opinion. You can't defend or hurt an opinion, because an opinion cannot be proven right or wrong. It can only be expressed. And, as I said before (which you don't seem able to understand for some reason) that is exacty what these forums are fr. Expressing one's opinion. No one is saying the opinion is sacred. That is simply something you chose to throw in there for some reason, and it makes about as much sense as your saying that a person's skill is determined by their lack of liking having a video game character in a game. I'm not trying hard, in fact I'm not trying at all. You, on the other hand, seem bound an determined to prove that a person's opinion about a game doesn't belong here because it won't change the developers' minds, despite the fact that that is clearly not the case. So it's you who are fighting to skate uphill. And I know not why. So much effort, so little to show for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubieus
You say you're "tired" of fruitless threads on the forums. So you must be tired of seeing Nique's super happy fun thread or the meme thread or other things like that that are actually even farther from useful than the OP's as to bringing forth "fruit" (whatever "fruit you're looking for). But the thing is, who really cares!? Who cares what you are tired of? Who cares what you think should and shouldn't be on these forums? Not only are you wrong, as everyone has the right to express their opinions on this thread (yep, I said it again, deal with it) but nobody really cares whether or not you want to see it. Other people's opinions are on the thread too. And they'll be there, whether you like it or not. The only "tactics" I see you deploying is the one of trying to discredit this thread simply because you don't agree with the OP. And you are failing miserably, adding further weight to the fact that you are anything but a "tactician". (Again, you really should look that word up)
There is a huge difference between retooling a game to work differently and expanding on it's lore and adding fan service characters from different FFs, so that isn't even a good comparison you had there. As you can see, the OP is not complaining about the retooling of the story and game to create an expanded story and game, he's simply stating his concerns about adding other main FF characters into the game and what that could mean for how the lore works rather than the lore itself. Of course Yoshi can make the lore itself work, nobody is disputing that at all. And if you weren't so busy trying to play forum manager, you'd probably see that. Also, not that it matters much, but calling consulars "wizards" wouldn't have been that far from the lore canon of Star Wars, since in canon lore there was also a planet of force-strong native women who called themselves "witches". Just a little something I thought I'd throw in there for you.
Of course the OP has no problem with the fact that Eorzea is reborn. Of course he has no problem with "fun". He is merely stating his concerns about having other FF characters in the game that could serve as cheesy fan service. How you got out of that that the Op is objecting to a reborn Eorzea of "fun" I'll never understand... unless, of course, you're simply doing as I suspect; grasping at straws and trying to use them as a life raft to keep your argument afloat.
Magic? The OP has stated no concerns about that. Mystery? No concerns about that either. Great characters, adventures, "fun"... nowhere has he stated concerns about that. That is completely different from what his entire thread is about. You're just scattered; your point is running all over the place. Try to stay focused here.
I also don't get where you think we're not having fun simply because the OP has one single concern about the game. Also, I haven't found a single petition concerning this matter. So, basically, your argument has displayed just about every single fallacy an argument could possibly display. (shakes head) Not that you didn't try. But it was a terrible conclusion to so much effort at best, just flat out horribly stated and wrong at worst. Apparently, anyone who has any concerns about the game and express them are just making a thread that shouldn't be made and are not having fun in the game. I am grateful, though. You made this debate (such as it is) extremely easy for me.
See you in ARR! :) -
07-11-2013, 03:57 PMFatestorm
<3 you Skye! <_<;;
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07-11-2013, 04:05 PMFatestormSeriously, as you say, the whole point of this is just to make a point, and talk about it civilly with whoever is interested. To disagree is fine; to attempt to short-circuit the entire discussion by shouting everyone down is... vexing, especially when one can simply click away to the next thread if one finds it uninteresting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatestorm
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07-11-2013, 04:12 PMSkyeWindbinderExactly. I mean, the people who made this forum made it so we, as fans of the game, can come together and express our opinions about the game. To have someone come on here and try to discredit the thread simply because they disagree with the OP of it, well, that's little more than destructive to the thread itself. In fact, it borders on trolling. If someone disagrees with a point, stating they do is fine. But who is another forum poster to sya that a person shouldn't post their opinion simply because they disagree? Gimme a break! lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Fatestorm
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07-11-2013, 04:43 PMyoshikwalla
I'm an Eorzean Loremaniac, but I'm excited about the idea of Lightning appearing in Eorzea for a short while - as long as they do it right. Cameos usually don't soil a story in the same sense that Gilgamesh doesn't, despite being a character from Final Fantasy V. As long as that character does not play an important, long-term role in the storyline, I don't see a problem because he isn't a featured cast member.
The first time Gilgamesh appeared in another Final Fantasy game was VI, I believe. And the fact that he was in it didn't soil the story for me. It was pleasantly surprising and gave me quite the shock, but that was it. I still remember every moment of that game.
When he reappeared in Final Fantasy VIII a second time as a GF, I was pleasantly surprised. But unfortunately, I'll remember Final Fantasy VIII for years to come (I hate that game). I'll still remember Zell's crud-eating grin and Ultemecia's gigantic antlers. And I'll remember what little plot I understood.
Then I played Rise of the Zilart and thought, "Wow, Gilgamesh is boring. Where are his other arms?" But I still enjoyed Rise of the Zilart.
He appeared in Final Fantasy XII and I had the awesomest optional boss fight I've had in a long time. But I still remember Baltheir's awesome one-liners and Basch's redeeming story that brought me to mantears. And Ashe picking her nose in that one poster.
Then he appeared in XIII-2 and I had a lot of fun. But I still cried at the end of the game. And then cried even harder during the end of the end of the game DLC thing.
And it's more likely than not that Lightning will appear in Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn, I will have a lot of fun, but still remember the epic story and characters of XIV more than I will remember Lightning. The same will go for Gilgamesh.
But it's also possible that I will hate it. Who knows? Maybe they'll do it horribly wrong. I certainly hope not.
PS: Gilgamesh and Hildibrand will make an awesome team. Especially considering that Hildibrand is literally the first man to ever leave Eorzea (he flew into space). When I watched Bahamut destroy everything, I thought "Wow. Hildibrand must be holding on for dear life and screaming his tits off," and suddenly the End of an Era became hilarious.
PSS: If Hildibrand is in the Lightning storyline, I will defend Lightning being in the game to my very grave. Because I will have laughed so hard I would die right then. It wouldn't matter anymore - Hildibrand and Lightning will have been in the same place. Hilarity will happen and it will happen hard. -
07-11-2013, 06:09 PMAldoraI can understand the mixed feelings amongst the community. Normally its the side characters which are iconic to the series (like Chocobo's, behemoths, cactaurs, Cid, Biggs, wedge, ifrit, shiva, etc, etc) that return in "each" installment of the series. Every time they are adjusted to fit the lore, look and feel of the game. With cameo roles like Lightning and Cloud, thats not the case. Those characters are meant to look and the same as their original counterparts.Quote:
Originally Posted by yoshikwalla
By looking at the screenshots so far, lightning wouldn't really fit in FFXIV. But! I'm interested to see how they will implement lightning as an event in FFXIV, because I like her as a character.
Therefore I would LOVE to see a event like questline with lightning and hildibrand, because I think it would be hilarious indeed! Especially if they implement something with Gilgamesh and hildibrand, where hildibrand is chasing the ever elusive Gilgamesh. -
07-12-2013, 12:12 AMKeyln
Reading this thread, I wonder if people are familiar with the saying, "Brevity is the soul of wit"...