Levelling in ARR

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Originally Posted by strallaalaa

i agree, this would be cool. i find it retarded if they totally removed it when it's been part of the game. only thing i would like them to remove is powerleveling. specially the way it is now. but having a mix of both is fine.

on a side note, every company trying to copy one type of mmo, at least one of them needs to try and do a ffxi copy paste and see how that goes even if SE refuses to do it. i mean what the worst that happens it goes free to play in a year like every mmo that came out the past 15years?

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From what I understand, and i could be wrong, but there will be a proper levelsync in ARR. One where your gear is dumbed down to the appropriate level without needing to re-equip everything. I hope that will be a solution to the power leveling, but time will tell.

FFXI is a copy , or based around, EverQuest. I thought there were lots of copies of that game running around? Could always jump into EQ or EQ2.

What i was trying to point in my post was that having a system that enables new & inexperienced players to not only simply level up and get to end game but also learn in the process so they will be ready for end content. We all know when ppl can PL to max or quickly blow through leves etc etc to get to max and then suddenly they hit the brick wall when they are ill prepared and don't get invites, get kicked from groups, ppl look down upon them as noobs, they have crappy gear, poor skill, etc etc.

What i left out in my post was that it too should be journey to get the max and end content. That being said players start from the beginning set goals and continue to work towards them from middle to eventually the end. Some ppl set goals higher then others and that's fine since we all have different mindsets but at the core of everything we eventually aim for the end. What i also left out in my previous post was that we should have the feeling of accomplishment, having achieved certain things, along with getting through barriers and obstacles set in our way to throw us off our path to the end. And this journey should be fun from start, middle & the end having the players go through the twist and turns of the adventure to get to end content.

My main point in the previous post was to say new & inexperienced players can grow as they play and works towards the end and that any one grind type is bad for SE FF franchise along with this game for short and long term. I didn't mean to say new ppl only should do that (push through the grind and get to end) having fun, achieving things and getting the feeling of accomplishment should be apart of the leveling process.

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Originally Posted by strallaalaa

when the people who live mmo leave, so do the casuals. they[hardcores] make mmo's live and flourish. (1.)we make events, we make parties, we support the game. we don't play and quit like it is a throw away game. (2.)and as long as mmo's are made for the simpleton then the majority will leave right away. they are tired of these mmo's, they are not getting used to them and saying ohh well that is what a mmo is now, heck no. they leave. and in my case i leave even faster then the last mmo. and this wasn't directed at you but an additional rant. sorry lol. /end rant.

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(1.) So casuals, don't make events? don't make parties? don't support the game? Really?!

(2.) Everyone says they are making this a WOW clone (a simpleton game in your words), When WOW actually had up to 12 million subscribers in its prime. So tell me again how the majority will leave if they do this? It isn't that they are getting tired of it because as of October 2012 they still had over 10 million (they dipped below 10 million before MOP, but its release put them back over). That is a lot of subs for ANY MMO, and clearly shows people don't "leave right away, [or] they are tired of these mmo's".

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Originally Posted by Cynthis

Now I understand that a lot of people here get their kicks from doing things like beating Van Darnus hard mode faster than the last time and I admire that, I really do. Those kind of things are what I define as "hardcore". But for myself and a lot of other "casual" players, we want content where we feel like we are making progress towards our goals and not content that we feel like we may never beat, or drops that we may never get. We want to do that while also helping others and spending time with our friends.

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Couldn't have said it better.

I'm pretty sure they will aim to please us all. Yes even the casuals or whatever they want to be labeled lol. Because if its anything like WoW the true fans of FF will be let down.

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Originally Posted by schism

I'm pretty sure they will aim to please us all. Yes even the casuals or whatever they want to be labeled lol. Because if its anything like WoW the true fans of FF will be let down.

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I agree on hoping to please all, and wouldn't mind a party grind mechanic in there, just not something unbalanced that favors only party grinds, because I have had my fill of it from XI and I am ready for something different (that is why I am looking forward to the questing aspect of it.)

That being said (wanted to show I agreed first before I said this) not all true FF fans would be let down, because I am a true FF fan (played since nintendo) and I wouldn't be let down, I would enjoy the MMO that takes place in the Final Fantasy Lore that I love (another reason I love Yoshi-P on the project, because he is adding in tons of FF elements like Gold Saucer, Crystal Tower, etc.).

So other than that, +1 to you sir and ZakarnRosewood for supporting equal pleasure for us all!

Yep we can only hope, either way i'll play it and hopefully it takes me and many others on a journey like FF usually does.

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Originally Posted by Takeshi_Eiketsu

I agree on hoping to please all, and wouldn't mind a party grind mechanic in there, just not something unbalanced that favors only party grinds, because I have had my fill of it from XI and I am ready for something different (that is why I am looking forward to the questing aspect of it.)

That being said (wanted to show I agreed first before I said this) not all true FF fans would be let down, because I am a true FF fan (played since nintendo) and I wouldn't be let down, I would enjoy the MMO that takes place in the Final Fantasy Lore that I love (another reason I love Yoshi-P on the project, because he is adding in tons of FF elements like Gold Saucer, Crystal Tower, etc.).

So other than that, +1 to you sir and ZakarnRosewood for supporting equal pleasure for us all!

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I couldn't be more excited about ARR's leveling model, which promises to be content-based (more on that later in my post).

I have played what is commonly thought of as the main two styles of MMO leveling, both party-grind and quest-based. Here are two of my experiences:

Grinding: FFXI was my first MMO, and I played it for four years. I started in January 2004, when your only means of progression past level 15 was to get in a party and start killing monsters. It was alright, but that wasn't the really fun part of the game for me. I enjoyed the questing (which I actually do read all my quests, thank you). Except for Norg, my fame was maxed the way it was intended, through questing. I never turned in a single piece of millioncorn. I loved the missions (such a simple thing as the rank 2-3 dragon fight was so epic back then). I loved the story. Exploration, crafting, gathering, fishing. These were all fun activities, but removed from the leveling process. And that is the part of the game that became the most frustrating for me. It wasn't because I ever had trouble finding a party on my main. I was a WHM and often had to turn down blind party invites while I was in the middle of something else. But as the game progressed and the population moved ahead in levels, it became harder to fill those last couple spots. Sitting there in town, nervously hoping you don't fill one spot just to lose another to someone who simply can't wait anymore (because it's already been an hour) is not a memory I cherish. And the parties themselves weren't really all that great, either. At first it was fun, but places like the Dunes and Yuhtunga/Yhoator jungle just became places of bane and frustration. I don't remember socialization and meeting new friends, I remember arguments about power-leveling (those who threatened to leave the party if there was a PL'er, and those who wouldn't party without one). Or the parties in stone silence, because you spent an hour putting the group together, now you wanted to concentrate and get as much exp as you can out of it before it broke up. Or the parties after Aht Urghan, which consisted of standing in the same zone for 10 levels and beating on nothing but Colibri, and it was so mind-numbingly boring because if the party knew what they were doing, the WHM had nothing else to do but keep up buffs. At one point, during all this, came Besieged, and it was the best thing since sliced bread! Here's 700 people all looking for a party, so you could easily jump in, or you could even do it solo. And, as long as you survived, you got exp! And no danger of down-leveling, no matter how many times you died! That was a major clue that leveling options were severely missing from the game.

Quest-Based: My husband played WoW, and I swore I'd never play it, due to its cartoony graphics. But after watching him running 40-man raids in Molten Core every Saturday, I finally gave in. He created a new character with me, and we started a new tradition of our questing static duo. We started doing the quests, and it immediately hit me that you could get all the way to level cap without having to depend on 5 other people! I asked him, "But, how do you learn to play in a party so you know how to raid?" He said, "Oh, that's what dungeons are for." So around level 20, we asked some guildmates to get on their alts and we ran through Blackfathom Deeps (yes, we did it level-appropriate). It was more than just the normal stand-in-place-and-kill-monsters, it felt like adventuring! We were completing quests, we were killing bosses, getting gear and loot, gaining exp, and learning how to play our classes as a team. I found as I played, I no longer cared about my levels. I was having so much fun playing the game, I didn't even notice when I leveled up. The game devs knew that people often had more than one character (in fact, many are alt-o-holics), so they wanted to give players different ways to level each character to curb burnout. Not only is there questing, dungeons, and PvP battlegrounds, but the questing gives you options, as well. When you finish an area, you often have the choice of moving on to more than one zone. The only exception is the high-level questing in the Cataclysm zones, which has been criticized by many as being too linear, to which I agree. This taught me that, no matter how good the game is, bad questing can leave you with a lack-luster experience. Classic, Burning Crusade, and Wrath of the Lich King all had amazing questlines (I can't speak for Mists of Pandaria, I haven't played it). Quest quality is now what I look for in a good MMO.

With ARR, we will have more options than ever before. I think some people are seeing that quest-based leveling will be one of those choices, and are having this knee-jerk reaction that it will be the only option. Yoshi-P said it will be a content-based leveling model, not just quest-based. Think about this: Out of the gate, ARR will have more options than WoW in its 8 years of experience. Main storyline, quests, levequests, dungeons, raids, Grand Company content, F.A.T.E., and grinding. The emphasis is being put on a story-based experience, which storytelling is what has always set Final Fantasy apart from other RPGs. If any franchise can pull off a fulfilling questing experience, it would be FF. We started to see what they were capable of in 1.0. The sidequests weren't very exciting, but don't forget, they were added as an afterthought (just like Tera, who tried to shoehorn quests into the Western version of a game that wasn't originally designed for them, and it turned out badly). Just think of what it will be like in a game that was set up that way from the start and wove them in with real intent. But if questing isn't for you? You have many other options to choose from. And not many games have the luxury of including a FFXI fanbase, who still seems to prefer old-school grinding. I think you'll find enough like-minded individuals to play the way you want.

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

The only exception is the high-level questing in the Cataclysm zones, which has been criticized by many as being too linear, to which I agree. This taught me that, no matter how good the game is, bad questing can leave you with a lack-luster experience. Classic, Burning Crusade, and Wrath of the Lich King all had amazing questlines (I can't speak for Mists of Pandaria, I haven't played it). Quest quality is now what I look for in a good MMO.

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Both prior to Cataclysm and even into Mists of Pandaria, however, the 'more immersing' (linear as all heck) quest model of Cataclysm was touted as the way to go for MMO questing. Heck it still is now among many MMO developer circles. MMO developers will often puff on their own smoke more than they ought to just as much as any other group of professionals with a large, devoted following. The "we know best" mindset has that flaw. It makes almost every single original great thing out there, but it does often take seemingly favorable but poorly realized trends, with mediocre execution at best, while still calling them perfect. As such I do worry about just where the SE team might be looking when they're both looking back and looking to the future.

Fundamentals stay relatively quiet because they're essentially obvious, despite being the key to just about anything and everything. But the 'new model' or 'goal' or 'trend', regardless of how far its strayed from them, how instanced its use really is before being presented as a general concept, will be the talk of gaming conventions.

LSS: I just hope they know what they intend and what will likely occur with the different things they are bringing into the game. I'm more in favor of the game bringing those aspects to the minds of the developers that being a stew pot in the first place, but I have to admit that an MMO has different needs than your average game. It is a setting after all, more so than a complete experience in itself.