Chaotic Alliance Raid: More Content for Professional Gamers

A lot of folks just need to get over the anxiety of failing on easier high end content. Extremes, Unreal, and Chaotic are very clearable by anyone as long as one puts aside hubris, works to overcome mistakes, and is honest with themselves and others.

Generally the worst players in any high end fight are silent. They don't admit (or recognize) mistakes, they don't listen when someone tries to correct or offer advice (admittedly some people are really bad at giving advice), and once the fight is learned by that demographic they rarely have patience to help others in kind. It's sadly the same group that is objectively terrified of parsing in all forms (despite the fact that one can often see a legitimate improvement in consistency when they do start using those tools).

All I can say is: "Be not afraid to fail. Fail a lot. Stop using Casual or Midcore as a shield to protect yourself. Every aspect of the game, and life as well, gets better when you learn to accept and grow from failure."

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

The majority might feel like they're engaging with casual content but they also likely feel that the gap between normal mode content and high-end content is insurmountably wide and that problem would be solved by re-tuning normal mode content. That's literally why we're having this conversation.

Non-combat content does actually require you to engage with the content to complete it. You can't AFK your way through beast tribes, custom deliveries or Ishgard restoration.

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This idea that players can AFK through normal dungeons falls into the same mythical category as a significant population using Physick at level 100. Simply repeating these ideas constantly doesn't make them true.

I completely agree the majority of players regard the gap between normal-mode combat and high-end combat is insurmountably wide.

The reason for this perception is that, for the majority of the players, it is true.

Thus I'm convinced your "solution" is a complete non-starter.

But let us suppose that tougher normal content produces players better prepared to tackle high-end content. Most players still wouldn't do it! The idea of studying raid plans and progging for hours in order to learn where to put their feet is not appealing to players who simply want to play a "game."

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

This idea that players can AFK through normal dungeons falls into the same mythical category as a significant population using Physick at level 100. Simply repeating these ideas constantly doesn't make them true.

I completely agree the majority of players regard the gap between normal-mode combat and high-end combat is insurmountably wide.

The reason for this perception is that, for the majority of the players, it is true.

Thus I'm convinced your "solution" is a complete non-starter.

But let us suppose that tougher normal content produces players better prepared to tackle high-end content. Most players still wouldn't do it! The idea of studying raid plans and progging for hours in order to learn where to put their feet is not appealing to players who simply want to play a "game."

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The gap isn't really that wide though. Going from M4N to Ex1-2 only requires about an hour practice, about a million gil worth of gear (or about 5 runs of M3/M4 for light-holo), and one or two nights of learning the fight.

Once you clear Ex1/2/3, unreal is a small step up. Past that you're pretty much ready for the first two floors of Savage. Black Cat isn't even terribly harder than Valigarmanda.

I know this because I've personally brought four non-raiders from my FC into a static this tier. Not all of them stuck with it, but all of them cleared past M3S from ZERO savage experience. Two are halfway through M4S and are excited to try Chaotic after the holidays.

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Originally Posted by Jamini

The gap isn't really that wide though. Going from M4N to Ex1-2 only requires about an hour practice, about a million gil worth of gear (or about 5 runs of M3/M4 for light-holo), and one or two nights of learning the fight.

Once you clear Ex1/2/3, unreal is a small step up. Past that you're pretty much ready for the first two floors of Savage. Black Cat isn't even terribly harder than Valigarmanda.

I know this because I've personally brought four non-raiders from my FC into a static this tier. Not all of them stuck with it, but all of them cleared past M3S from ZERO savage experience. Two are halfway through M4S and are excited to try Chaotic after the holidays.

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This works in a vacuum, but the story doesn't enforce learning opportunities and nor is it a place for developing habits, in many instances a player will just develop bad habits and complacency issues.

Story mode content is essentially what you make of it. You can have players that are capable of making the transition to extreme or savage without any issues whatsoever, but you can also have players coming from the MSQ with very very fundamental issues which makes that transition a lot harder. There needs to be a much greater degree of consistency in the quality of players that come out of doing the MSQ. I know some players that can confidently make the transition, I also know a lot of players that would need to essentially go through the whole learning process again, just because of the bad habits developed through MSQ, or because of the sheer lack of incentive to actually do more.

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Originally Posted by Jamini

The gap isn't really that wide though. Going from M4N to Ex1-2 only requires about an hour practice, about a million gil worth of gear (or about 5 runs of M3/M4 for light-holo), and one or two nights of learning the fight.

Once you clear Ex1/2/3, unreal is a small step up. Past that you're pretty much ready for the first two floors of Savage. Black Cat isn't even terribly harder than Valigarmanda.

I know this because I've personally brought four non-raiders from my FC into a static this tier. Not all of them stuck with it, but all of them cleared past M3S from ZERO savage experience. Two are halfway through M4S and are excited to try Chaotic after the holidays.

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I really wish you guys gave yourselves more credit for being very good at something most people aren't.

Every "small step" you talk about is an insurmountable obstacle for some people because their intrinsic skill is capped! Yes, practice can push that skill ceiling upwards, but not indefinitely. Moreover for many, the very idea of working to tackle high-end content is completely nonsensical. They already have jobs.

It's great you have found players eager to approach savage content and I commend you for helping them. I'd suggest they are well above average in skill level. As an example I stopped the current tier at M1N because I found it extremely challenging and I had no interest in taking copious notes from a guide then annoying people farming M2-M4N because I'd die repeatedly. The idea of forming a static to run savage? Like most people I have neither the time nor the interest. It's niche content many people simply don't like.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

This idea that players can AFK through normal dungeons falls into the same mythical category as a significant population using Physick at level 100. Simply repeating these ideas constantly doesn't make them true.

I completely agree the majority of players regard the gap between normal-mode combat and high-end combat is insurmountably wide.

The reason for this perception is that, for the majority of the players, it is true.

Thus I'm convinced your "solution" is a complete non-starter.

But let us suppose that tougher normal content produces players better prepared to tackle high-end content. Most players still wouldn't do it! The idea of studying raid plans and progging for hours in order to learn where to put their feet is not appealing to players who simply want to play a "game."

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I've made it to the first boss of a dungeon before realising that the healer wasn't with the party and was in fact AFK at the start of the dungeon before. I don't think it's a secret that the content is so undertuned that it doesn't require a full party (or more than a solo WAR) to complete.

It's absolutely fine if people don't want to bother with high-end content. Creating a smoother difficulty curve between easy and hard content would make it much more achievable for the people who do want to step into high-end content to do that though.

What we have right now is the red line. We need something more like the green line.

https://i.imgur.com/w7klHkX.jpeg

And I don't think the way to achieve that is by making the mechanics significantly harder. I think current dungeon bosses are more or less fine for casual content. I think the main thing that needs to be tweaked is the numbers so that tanks and healers are actually required to play the game. Make tankbusters do enough damage that you actually need to use at least light mitigation for them and actually require a heal afterwards. Add some abilities that need to be interrupted to trash mobs again to keep people awake. That kind of thing.

I think the trash mobs that do raidwide damage in the first 2 expert dungeons were a really nice idea but the problem was they do so little damage and die so fast that you don't even need to bother healing it.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

I've made it to the first boss of a dungeon before realising that the healer wasn't with the party and was in fact AFK at the start of the dungeon before. I don't think it's a secret that the content is so undertuned that it doesn't require a full party (or more than a solo WAR) to complete.

It's absolutely fine if people don't want to bother with high-end content. Creating a smoother difficulty curve between easy and hard content would make it much more achievable for the people who do want to step into high-end content to do that though.

What we have right now is the red line. We need something more like the green line.


And I don't think the way to achieve that is by making the mechanics significantly harder. I think current dungeon bosses are more or less fine for casual content. I think the main thing that needs to be tweaked is the numbers so that tanks and healers are actually required to play the game. Make tankbusters do enough damage that you actually need to use at least light mitigation for them and actually require a heal afterwards. Add some abilities that need to be interrupted to trash mobs again to keep people awake. That kind of thing.

I think the trash mobs that do raidwide damage in the first 2 expert dungeons were a really nice idea but the problem was they do so little damage and die so fast that you don't even need to bother healing it.

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Oh I agree with all of that. Current scaling simply spoils a lot of older fights (rather than CAR I would've loved a CT rescaling so I got to see all the mechanics).

And yes, smoothing of the difficulty curve away from a virtual step function would be a vast improvement.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Yeah, that's the point that I'm making. The skill floor has been set so low that there is an epidemic of players who have no idea how the game works, which makes the gap between normal mode and actual content far too wide.

I think the game should ask just a little bit more of players in normal content, so they actually develop a basic understanding of how the game works.

Basically, this:

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While I agree normal content should ask more, closing the gap a bit between normal content and more difficult content doesn't really address an underlying issue of a lack of content overall.

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Originally Posted by Jamini

A lot of folks just need to get over the anxiety of failing on easier high end content. Extremes, Unreal, and Chaotic are very clearable by anyone as long as one puts aside hubris, works to overcome mistakes, and is honest with themselves and others.

Generally the worst players in any high end fight are silent. They don't admit (or recognize) mistakes, they don't listen when someone tries to correct or offer advice (admittedly some people are really bad at giving advice), and once the fight is learned by that demographic they rarely have patience to help others in kind. It's sadly the same group that is objectively terrified of parsing in all forms (despite the fact that one can often see a legitimate improvement in consistency when they do start using those tools).

All I can say is: "Be not afraid to fail. Fail a lot. Stop using Casual or Midcore as a shield to protect yourself. Every aspect of the game, and life as well, gets better when you learn to accept and grow from failure."

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I see your pov... kinda? A lot of people don't use it as a shield to protect themselves or as a term to look down on other players (and a lot of people do, obviously), people use it as a term to separate themselves from raiders in general. One of their points with this content was trying to get more people into raiding and I would say it failed rather miserably based on all the discussion so far and how the fight is being received. What if someone doesn't want to be good at raiding, or they don't want to be a raider? Or, what if someone is a raider but doesn't care about parsing and just wants the clear? People are "terrified" of speaking up because there's a higher chance at this point of being told off/booted entirely instead of getting any helpful form of feedback. Heck, most players would run around like a chicken without their head attached without a guide, even. I feel like you see it entirely as something clear cut, when it isn't.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

While I agree normal content should ask more, closing the gap a bit between normal content and more difficult content doesn't really address an underlying issue of a lack of content overall.

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Correct but that's a completely separate issue.

I'll say it yet again - relics and exploration zone need to start in x.1.

I think the game could also do with another new form of repeatable normal mode content that can be done repeatedly for rewards. I think variant and criterion was a good start but the execution wasn't quite there yet. Variant could have done with more rewards to encourage people to keep running it and the parts between bosses were way too tedious once you had done each path once. Criterion definitely needed more rewards and criterion savage was just far too punishing for what it was IMO.