Can anyone clearly explain "job homogenization" in this game?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

'Don't nerf PCT, it's well-designed. Buff the other jobs into equivalent performance.' -> 'Don't homogenize other jobs to be like PCT.' -> 'Don't nerf PCT, it's well-designed. Buff the other jobs into equivalent performance.'

This is the standard infinite loop of obstructive non-solutions put forward by every overpowered job in the history of this game.

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Why just outright lie like this

Literally nobody is asking to not nerf PCT (even me as an example of the usual “mains defend their overpowered job”) people are saying don’t change its design not its damage. As long as you don’t touch its motifs and keep it clear of the rezz casters people would be happy with it literally anywhere else

You've been raising obstacles at pretty much every step.

Everyone knows where the problem is, we've brought it up for months. It comes down to the absence of an uptime requirement to build up to burst. If you change motif design, you solve the problem. A potency nerf would have to be absolutely massive at this point to address FRU, and that in turn will leave PCT underpowered on the next tier. But I suppose that's the next stop.

But it's questionable why any of this balance discussion is of interest to you at all. On the plus side, at least you'll never have that moral high ground in the healer/tank discussion, going forward.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You've been raising obstacles at pretty much every step.

Everyone knows where the problem is, we've brought it up for months. It comes down to the absence of an uptime requirement to build up to burst. If you change motif design, you solve the problem. A potency nerf would have to be absolutely massive at this point to address FRU, and that in turn will leave PCT underpowered on the next tier. But I suppose that's the next stop.

But it's questionable why any of this balance discussion is of interest to you at all. On the plus side, at least you'll never have that moral high ground in the healer/tank discussion, going forward.

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Yes because people don’t want the motif design changed because you can fix it with nerfs. I literally open every post with basically a disclaimer that I support PCT nerfs because no matter how many times I say it you just ignore it for the purpose of acting the way you do. Like do you want me to send you a quote if every single time I say I support PCT nerfs, I physically don’t know how I can say it any other way

You can fix PCT with a 7-8% nerf, that keeps it roughly low mid melee in uptime and near or at the top in ultimate, you don’t have to mess with requiring targets for motifs, literally nobody besides you actually wants this. Even on the subs you get downvoted for this opinion.

It needs a potency nerf, not a muse change

And acting like I’m trying to defend PCT removes my ability to have an opinion on the rank healer discussion is just rude. Like has PCT unhinged you this far, like I physically do not understand why everything with you goes out the window when discussing PCT

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

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Just an observation, as you've removed yourself entirely from the tank sustain discussion. I assume that you've realized that the instant you try to make a case around 'fairness/balance' between tank/healer roles again on the tank forum, your stance on the PCT issue is guaranteed to be called into question. You'd never be able to do it now.

This is ultimately a damage profile issue, which is why certain jobs are better at some fights than others. The problem with PCT is that having an extremely burst-focused profile with no uptime requirement to generate that makes it very difficult to balance both extremes of fight design. Potency nerfs will solve one case but not both. The solution for motifs has come up a lot of times, from people other than myself, and there's not just one solution either. The best compromise I've seen is having the palette influence cast times on motifs while requiring a target on motifs.

I think if you're smart about it, you can have balance but also have a controlled redesign happen in a way that creates interesting interactions between job gauge elements. Or you can continue to create obstacles, and eventually the dev team will be so panicked about players leaving that they will reflexively nerf PCT into the ground. The process for this doesn't really matter to me, we'll get to the end result eventually.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

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Okay I’m honestly trying to reign discussion back in here because I don’t want to keep screaming at you and I feel this post is a bit more mellow than the other ones

Let’s discuss post elements here in a nicer way

1) I haven’t removed myself from the tank sustain discussion it’s just that it hasn’t come up much recently (because of the overwhelming focus on PCT) I don’t think it’s fair to say that I can’t comment there or have a valid stance because of PCT when I don’t want to defend PCT from the perspective of I want to play an overpowered job, I want to defend its internal game design. Like I said to you I would nerf PCT to SMN levels of damage before I would be willing to change the motifs. In my opinion that’s a relatively popular opinion, people don’t want the motifs to change because it’s something that no other job does. You point out that PCT dodges the need for uptime to prepare for a burst. You see that as a strong advantage, others see it as a point of difference. But that’s a fair disagreement

2) potency nerfs will fix it in savage which I think is where most people consider the more important aspect. It’s rare a person who believes that PCT shouldn’t have a niche in ultimate. Do you disagree with PCT being allowed to be top DPS in ultimates (legit question here?). If you gave PCT a 7-10% nerf you would push it down in savage while still allowing it to have top spot in ultimate but not egregiously. That’s not me trying to maintain my job at the top of the table that’s me believing that a job that specifically excels in said niche should be very close to if not at the top when it’s in its niche

3) I don’t think it’s fair to act like the devs will reflexively nerf PCT into the ground because people “put up obstacles” when in reality what you are discussing is simply not wanting to change the core elements of the jobs design. Would you really be opposed to my 7-10% nerf proposal? If so what are your problems with it? Why isn’t it viable? Can you articulate it? I’m not sure why you believe the only solution is changing the motifs

And finally- I’m sorry, I have been acting excessively rude recently and I need to stop.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You've been raising obstacles at pretty much every step.

Everyone knows where the problem is, we've brought it up for months. It comes down to the absence of an uptime requirement to build up to burst. If you change motif design, you solve the problem. A potency nerf would have to be absolutely massive at this point to address FRU, and that in turn will leave PCT underpowered on the next tier. But I suppose that's the next stop.

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Well after suggesting constantly to delete rphys from the gameby making them into casters, you're at least consistent with your usual position of homogenizing everything to balance a system that has no variables left for balance, I'll give you that.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

my 7-10% nerf proposal

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I am surprised by this statement. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you say in the past that one of PCT's "unique" qualities was its extremely strong burst? That this is one of the things that made the job?

A 10% nerf would put it fairly close to the rezz casters, something I recall you fighting against in the past (and to be clear I do believe it makes sense that PCT is balanced to deal similar damage to the melee/BLM group).

I also recall (not from you in particular) plenty of discussion denying that PCT would break the Ultimate, that it was fine, that the Savage numbers didn't mean that much and that the difference wasn't that high... despite the fact that there was quite a bit of worry on the jobs' strength from the very beginning of the expansion: these numbers are still the ones the job was released with!


And PCT's niche is not just Ultimates, it's literally any fight with downtime, which is quite many of them: any dungeon, any Ultimate, any normal/Extreme/Savage fight with downtime... even stuff like treasure or deep dungeons! Getting benefit from downtime is hardly a PCT exclusive thing, the job simply takes it to another level.

Downtime is not a rare occurrence unlike something like 2-target boss fights, which are found mostly in Ultimates. PCT also benefits a lot from those, particularly if stacked, but the job also has line attacks to rake in extra potency in such cases where the targets are spread!

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Originally Posted by Aco505

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When I said “extremely strong burst” I meant that its damage profile is strongly tilted to its burst; it does like 50+% of its damage in the 10% of the total encounter that constitutes the time starry muse is active. A flat potency nerf doesn’t change that. Nerfing the aetherhues by 10 potency and the muses by 100 still gives you the same burst profile just at a lower total damage

And the range of 7-10 is precisely because looking at PCT between FRU and savage is a bit wonky right now because the upper echelons of players aren’t doing savage right now so most jobs max and 80+ percentile parses for 7.1 actually went down despite most classes being buffed. Trying to compare PCT’s 7.05 numbers to other classes 7.05 numbers + a percentage increase represented by their 7.1 buff is about the clearest image we have where currently PCT is ahead by about 1-2% in full uptime with the remaining melee and BLM making up a 5-6% spread with the support DPS about 5% below them. So a 7-10% nerf puts PCT around low end of melee in full uptime fights but still clear of the rezz casters, but like I said this is a bit finicky on the maths. 10% is probably a bit much because RDM is doing quite well now but 7% may not be enough, I just put it roughly in a range that would keep it in melee range in savage but blunt its dominance in FRU. If 7.1’s balance is looked at in isolation then yes you are right 10% is too harsh

I say PCT’s niche is ultimate because actionable downtime that PCT massively benefits from really only exists in ultimate for content where balance has meaning. Savage and extreme these days barely have downtime and if they do it’s really only 1-2 motifs across the fight at most, it’s not nothing per say but it’s close to basically soulsow level in that range. Below that downtime and AOE are basically always unbalanced, like they just simply don’t balance AOE these days, it just kinda exists. Dungeon balance shouldn’t be ignored (I mean I still say bloodwhetting should be nerfed in dungeons despite dungeon balance not mattering per say) but it has less meaning here and that could be fixed by something as simple as giving motifs a higher falloff as while hammer is rather weak PPS wise in single target it’s a beast in AOE. But that’s kinda beyond the scope of my point, I honestly don’t even know how the DPS rank against each other in dungeon style AOE

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Originally Posted by Aco505

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It's always remarkable how 'ignoring the rules as they apply to everyone else' ends up being an 'identity'.

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Originally Posted by Valence

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I'll argue for parity and fairness, just as I've promised. Snow is all set to push for PCT's ongoing dominance, just as they've promised. And you'll continue to be a long-suffering Physical Ranged player in the name of defending the status quo, just as you've promised. So we're all raiders of our word, really, except for Snow, who is, in fact, roleplaying a raider.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I say PCT’s niche is ultimate because actionable downtime that PCT massively benefits from really only exists in ultimate for content where balance has meaning. Savage and extreme these days barely have downtime and if they do it’s really only 1-2 motifs across the fight at most, it’s not nothing per say but it’s close to basically soulsow level in that range. Below that downtime and AOE are basically always unbalanced, like they just simply don’t balance AOE these days, it just kinda exists. Dungeon balance shouldn’t be ignored (I mean I still say bloodwhetting should be nerfed in dungeons despite dungeon balance not mattering per say) but it has less meaning here and that could be fixed by something as simple as giving motifs a higher falloff as while hammer is rather weak PPS wise in single target it’s a beast in AOE. But that’s kinda beyond the scope of my point, I honestly don’t even know how the DPS rank against each other in dungeon style AOE

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Saying that getting even 1 motif is like Soulsow... come on, you barely want to use Harvest Moon in full uptime unless you need the disengage. It's not even useful in burst anymore under normal circumstances. Motifs provide way more DPS and build Moogle/Madeen while HM is just a stronger basic GCD.

But the thing is that you often said "don't nerf PCT because of Ultimates. The job shouldn't change because of this one piece of content!" and now the goalpost is moved and what you say is that downtime in Ultimates is the only one that matters. I disagree. It all matters. One thing is for a job to excel at specific stuff like 2-target fights or being strong at a certain niche such as level 60 in PotD (RDM, MCH) or level 70 Ultimates (SMN) and another is being the best at literally everything (except level 70 Ultimates, where it's still quite good, just not the strongest).

Criterion Savage dungeons matter as much as a normal dungeon in which the PCT decimates the pull before the other party members can barely act. Of course, this doesn't mean the job should be looked at solely due to the latter but it also matters. The point is not necessarily for them to balance its AoE due to something like a leveling dungeon but we're talking about a job that is best or at worst great at single target, AoE and cleave damage across all levels and content types.

I don't know if nerfing all potencies by 10% will be the solution and I agree motifs requiring a target shouldn't be the fix either. What I do know is that I'm not sure if the devs will find the proper solution to this situation.