Machinist class is dead

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Envoyé par Silver-Strider

MCH does NOT have more damage than BRD or DNC though.

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Current metrics say otherwise, MCH does more dmg in 99% of all content. The difference in mobility between MCH and DNC/BRD isnt anything close to the difference between BLM/SMN thats not even a close comparison.

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Envoyé par Cyd3l

Current metrics say otherwise, MCH does more dmg in 99% of all content. The difference in mobility between MCH and DNC/BRD isnt anything close to the difference between BLM/SMN thats not even a close comparison.

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Hyperbole doesn't make your argument right. We don't have the metrics to determine if every Dungeon/24man/etc MCH is doing more damage than BRD/DNC so I'm calling BS on this "argument" .

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Envoyé par Silver-Strider

Hyperbole doesn't make your argument right. We don't have the metrics to determine if every Dungeon/24man/etc MCH is doing more damage than BRD/DNC so I'm calling BS on this "argument" .

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What we have is FFlogs, and yes that is not 100% reliable but it is all we have. What's your source then? Where are you getting info that MCH loses to BRD and DNC? Im curious.

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Envoyé par Cyd3l

What we have is FFlogs, and yes that is not 100% reliable but it is all we have. What's your source then? Where are you getting info that MCH loses to BRD and DNC? Im curious.

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Even on FFlogs, MCH is outclasses in practically every area.
DNC is ahead in dungeons.
Raids has BRD and DNC ahead, both normal and savage.

Only the new 24 man has MCH ahead but considering it's been out all of 1 week, it's hardly accurate and a far cry from 99% of content

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Envoyé par Cyd3l

What we have is FFlogs, and yes that is not 100% reliable but it is all we have. What's your source then? Where are you getting info that MCH loses to BRD and DNC? Im curious.

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We do. And you're reading them incorrectly. I even outlined to you why Machinist is nowhere near Bard and Dancer yet you've seemingly ignored it. Simply glancing at the rDPS or aDPS tab does not properly illustrate overall output. While still helpful, you have to consider their contribution under raid buffs. This is where Machinist gets hopelessly outclassed. To repeat myself from earlier.

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Envoyé par ForteNightshade

]For specifics, allow me to highlight these three logs from top ranked Prange players to better illustrate the point.

Dancer gave 1,930 DPS while taking 436 for a net gain of 1,494 DPS
Bard gave 1,806 DPS while taking 573 for a net gain of 1,233 DPS
Machinist gave 0 DPS while taking 447 for a net gain of 447 DPS

As you can see, Dancer and Bard give an astronomical amount more overall DPS to the party due to buffing other jobs. Samurai, Black Mage and Dark Knight are benefit immensely from both jobs. Contrast that with Machinist that brings nothing and offers nothing. It's objectively weaker in every facet, hence why it's been entirely nonexistent in the speed meta this entire tier. Even a month in no one played it at that level. Not even 1%. Literally no one. White Mage, Paladin and Warrior all had more of a presence despite them being anti-speed. That's how bad Machinist is right now. This "buff" doesn't even nudge the needle.

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Citation:

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Envoyé par Silver-Strider

Even on FFlogs, MCH is outclasses in practically every area.
DNC is ahead in dungeons.
Raids has BRD and DNC ahead, both normal and savage.

Only the new 24 man has MCH ahead but considering it's been out all of 1 week, it's hardly accurate and a far cry from 99% of content

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As of today:

Dungeons:
99 percentile players:
https://www.pandorasfox.ca/ffimg/mch99dung.jpg


Across all Players:
https://www.pandorasfox.ca/ffimg/mchalldung.jpg


Extremes:
99 percentile players:
https://www.pandorasfox.ca/ffimg/mchextreme99.jpg


All ranges:
https://www.pandorasfox.ca/ffimg/mchextremeall.jpg


Normal Raids:
99 percentile players:
https://www.pandorasfox.ca/ffimg/mchnormal99.jpg

No point for all ranges MCH is already way ahead at the top levels the gap only grows as you move to lower percentiles.


Savage Raids:
99 percentile players:
https://www.pandorasfox.ca/ffimg/mchsav99.jpg
Here we finally see buff classes edging out when doing the hardest content at the most optimal levels and even then its minor.


All percentiles:
https://www.pandorasfox.ca/ffimg/mchallsav.jpg
But unless you are literally playing perfectly and with 7 other of the best 1% of players in the game it goes back to MCH.

So yea MCH drops 1-3% in the hardest content when played by the best players in the game, but otherwise you know the content 99% of the players experience MCH is quite ahead of the other phys-ranged.

this is all rDPS btw so it is taking into account DPS gained from buffs, switch to Adps or Ndps and MCH is leagues ahead.

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Envoyé par ForteNightshade

We do. And you're reading them incorrectly. I even outlined to you why Machinist is nowhere near Bard and Dancer yet you've seemingly ignored it. Simply glancing at the rDPS or aDPS tab does not properly illustrate overall output. While still helpful, you have to consider their contribution under raid buffs. This is where Machinist gets hopelessly outclassed. To repeat myself from earlier.

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That's because MCH isn't a buff class? Sure DNC gave 1.494k to MCHs 447 but how much more personal DPS did MCH contribute over Dancer? If DNC only does 5.8k DPS but gains 1.4k DPS thru their buffs for a total of 7.2k dmg, and MCH does 7.2k DPS but gains nothing from buffs, then they both contribute the same. My previous post shows the results of DPS gained thru buffs and MCH contributes more except when played with a group at the highest levels and then the gap between all 3 phys-ranged dps is within 2% of each other.

I do more damage on BRD than on MCH, and I don't even know how to play BRD.

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Envoyé par Cyd3l

As of today:

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As of today:
Dungeons are 4 players content.
If we remove 4 players from the party, of course rDPS of DNC/BRD will be lower. Using 4 player content is nonsense just like using 24 man raid content.
Extremes are quite biased. With add phase on the 2 first and a long downtime on the first. Yet I can't explain the difference between P1S and Endsinger EX, both are full uptime content but both present different data. What's even weirder is that P1S often ends at 6:40~7:00 mark, in theory MCH should benefit the most from this kill time.
Maybe because it's been only a week, maybe we'll need more time, but there is a big discrepancy.
Normal raid are not optimized, it's normal that DNC and BRD will not get very high because most players moved onto savage. Only non-raiders still play normal mode.

It's normal that MCH is leagues ahead aDPS and nDPS wise, that's like comparing a MCH to a DNC that doesn't dance.

Savage raids are the best metric to take in account simply because that's where DPS counts the most.
And it's exactly where it counts the most that it's in the shadow of the two other ranged that also offer more utility tool.

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Envoyé par CKNovel

As of today:
Dungeons are 4 players content.
If we remove 4 players from the party, of course rDPS of DNC/BRD will be lower. Using 4 player content is nonsense just like using 24 man raid content.
Extremes are quite biased. With add phase on the 2 first and a long downtime on the first. Yet I can't explain the difference between P1S and Endsinger EX, both are full uptime content but both present different data. What's even weirder is that P1S often ends at 6:40~7:00 mark, in theory MCH should benefit the most from this kill time.
Normal raid are not optimized, it's normal that DNC and BRD will not get very high because most players moved onto savage. Only non-raiders still play normal mode.

Savage raids are the best metric to take in account simply because that's where DPS counts the most...

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Why would SE design only around 1 piece of content? Furthermore the content the least amount of players participate in. You're basically saying its ok for BRD and DNC to suck in solo content, group content, content with adds, pretty much ALL CONTENT that isn't savage. And hey they suck in savage too unless the rest of your party are all great players. Yeah makes perfect sense, MCH should be better in everything all the time. Besides MCH, DNC and BRD can all clear savage as is with plenty of time to spare on enrage so DPS isn't an issue for clearing content.

Normal Raids are not optimized, yes probably true. BRD and DNC need every thing they do to be optimized or they suck, that's how buffs work. I certainly don't get optimized groups in everything I do. MCH doesn't need this, they just worry about their own performance which is why they are ahead in everything outside the most optimized groups. But hey even Savage among 90% of all savage players MCH does better. Only when you reach the top 10% does BRD and DNC surpass MCH. It takes a whole party of perfect execution in a perfect scenario with perfect buff windows for DNC and BRD to pull ahead. MCH again doesn't need anything special, you don't rely on 7 other people executing perfectly to perform well.

Imagine starting a new class and being told. So you can play DNC or BRD but keep in mind you will be the worst DPS in all content until you hit savage and find a group of 7 other amazing players who never make mistakes and once you do you'll shoot 1-3% higher than MCH to become the 2nd or 3rd worst class. Or you can play MCH do great dmg in all of the games content including savage until you reach the highest level possible at which point you might drop 1-3%. You guys may not care about 99% of the games content but the majority of players do.

I really wish we could have had a discussion about fixing the range role and making MCH, DNC and BRD desired but its clear all MCH players want to do is be the best phys-ranged option for all scenarios making BRD and DNC pointless.