Endwalker's message (spoilers!)

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm not sure why that would be 'frustrating' since most of that 'suffering' took place in the past and isn't remotely comparable to the extent of the suffering endured by the majority of the antagonists.

I think it's pretty safe to suggest that it's a bigger deal for someone to lose their entire family, their friends, their neighbours, their pets and their culture/society as a whole.

It's perfectly possible to sympathise with individual losses, of course, but it comes across as narcissistic preaching for the Scions to claim to have lost 'so much' when things have gone their way more often than not and everything ultimately wraps up in a neat little bow with minimal lasting consequences. As such, much of the 'burdens' they are speaking about are applicable to other people and nations.

On your list, only Krile really comes close to that and she wasn't present during the game's final stretch by virtue of not really being much of a fighter.

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Yes, I do agree that if we compare immortal beings millennia old to people who live for less than a century and die, that in terms of total traumatic events one will eclipse the other.

But, and perhaps this is subjective, suffering is not a point value like XP. The Ancients that have made comments in the subject look at the short lives the sundered have and remark on how it’s a more difficult existence than their own. Some are awed by the strength of people to continue moving forward. Others, like the unsundered, look at the sundered as beings subjected to unworthy, painful lives, better off dead in the end. If both sides can make those judgements given all they’ve suffered, and given their clear disagreement on the worthiness of those lives, there must be more to this than simply a numbers comparison.

For the rest of the antagonists I would push back against the idea that they all suffered so dearly that comparisons between them and the Scions are insulting or laughable.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

For the rest of the antagonists I would push back against the idea that they all suffered so dearly that comparisons between them and the Scions are insulting or laughable.

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Many of them did suffer though, especially a whole lot of a hell more than the scions ever have since like….Heavensward lmao, idk what it would be “insulting.” Look at Ilberd for example. He watched his people reduced to being slaughtered and turned into slaves on a daily basis. Gaius who had to watch his kids all die one by one. That’s only the tip of the iceberg. In comparison the scions get off scot free time and time again. They’re immune to loss amongst themselves since they can even come back from the dead now, and for yshtola it’s happened 5-6 times. So yes it’s incredibly hard to sense that they’ve really lost much when the themes of the game don’t apply to them.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Many of them did suffer though, especially a whole lot of a hell more than the scions ever have since like….Heavensward lmao, idk what it would be “insulting.” Look at Ilberd for example. He watched his people reduced to being slaughtered and turned into slaves on a daily basis. Gaius who had to watch his kids all die one by one. That’s only the tip of the iceberg. In comparison the scions get off scot free time and time again. They’re immune to loss amongst themselves since they can even come back from the dead now, and for yshtola it’s happened 5-6 times. So yes it’s incredibly hard to sense that they’ve really lost much when the themes of the game don’t apply to them.

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But this is exactly my point. What Ilberd went through is what Lyse and Raubahn went through as well, and Gaius watched his adoptive kids die yes, but long after he switched sides and took up the Scions cause. The fact remains that the Scions, their message, their goals, were born from the real suffering they experienced and clearly resonated with others who struggled. The point I’m pushing back on is the idea that the Scions haven’t suffered enough to speak up.

I think they have, and even if they hadn’t they’d still be right to do so.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

But this is exactly my point. What Ilberd went through is what Lyse and Raubahn went through as well, and Gaius watched his adoptive kids die yes, but long after he switched sides and took up the Scions cause. The fact remains that the Scions, their message, their goals, were born from the real suffering they experienced and clearly resonated with others who struggled. The point I’m pushing back on is the idea that the Scions haven’t suffered enough to speak up.

I think they have, and even if they hadn’t they’d still be right to do so.

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We’ll have to agree to disagree. Compared to most other protagonists and antagonists they really haven’t suffered. Gaius never really switched sides, he even says even though we’re helping him with the weapons it doesn’t change anything and we have the dialogue option to say that as well. Raubahn isn’t really a scion. Lyse though yes that would count. But nothing really compares to the ancients’ millennia of suffering and trying to compare the scions to them is very strange. They’ve had most things handed to them on a silver platter with minimal loss.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

We’ll have to agree to disagree. Compared to most other protagonists and antagonists they really haven’t suffered. Gaius never really switched sides, he even says even though we’re helping him with the weapons it doesn’t change anything and we have the dialogue option to say that as well. Raubahn isn’t really a scion. Lyse though yes that would count. But nothing really compares to the ancients’ millennia of suffering and trying to compare the scions to them is very strange. They’ve had most things handed to them on a silver platter with minimal loss.

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The ancients, specifically the unsundered, suffering was of their own making though. As with the defeat of Zodiark they were released from their tempering and their suffering.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

We’ll have to agree to disagree. Compared to most other protagonists and antagonists they really haven’t suffered. Gaius never really switched sides, he even says even though we’re helping him with the weapons it doesn’t change anything and we have the dialogue option to say that as well. Raubahn isn’t really a scion. Lyse though yes that would count. But nothing really compares to the ancients’ millennia of suffering and trying to compare the scions to them is very strange. They’ve had most things handed to them on a silver platter with minimal loss.

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Not even just the ancients - multiple stars' worth.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

The ancients, specifically the unsundered, suffering was of their own making though. As with the defeat of Zodiark they were released from their tempering and their suffering.

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How so? The final days wasn’t really their own doing, and they were suffering trying to bring back their loved ones. As we know, a primal being slayed doesn’t untemper someone so presumably the sundered ascians are still tempered. If you mean the souls within him then yes but i meant moreso the ancients as a whole.

Ok i must be weird. but the only time i cried was when Zeno arrived. and gave me the push at the end to defeat the dymas and the fight scene at the end . I know he is only after the fight but feel there might have been alittle more to that .

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

For the rest of the antagonists I would push back against the idea that they all suffered so dearly that comparisons between them and the Scions are insulting or laughable.

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The vast majority did, since the story is written in such a way as to conveniently have the protagonists overcome whatever is sent their way for the most part with minimal losses. If not for the Warrior of Light, Limsa would have been wiped off of the map by the likes of Leviathan and Titan. Or at least heavily damaged. The antagonists not having the Warrior of Light to solve all their problems, however, ensures that their story is far more tragic as those that they're in opposition to. There's heavier stakes, more meaningful losses and extensive damage.

In general, I sympathise more with genuine underdogs rather than those who position themselves as such despite not really losing much by comparison.

I'm also not sure why it would be 'insulting' either. Insulting to who, exactly? Putting aside the simple fact that none of the characters are real, nobody is obligated to like or dislike specific fictional entities. Especially if we're seeking to be entertained.

For example, I was indifferent to Moenbryda so it felt forced to me that she's brought up so often, especially when everybody else is expected to 'move on' and not seek vengeance (but somehow it's conveniently fine for the Scions to cry and scream and threaten to take revenge on someone they care about).

Emotional manipulation as a storytelling device doesn't work on me, either. I had a big grin of disbelief on my face as the Scions were 'sacrificing' themselves because it was obvious none of them were actually going to die, so it all felt like meaningless padding and the same sort of fake stakes that have made many Hollywood movies bland and predictable.

So, yeah, I'm not going to pretend as if the Scions' losses are anywhere near as tragic, drastic or relevant as entire civilisations/planets being wiped out completely. Others are free to think differently, of course - but I doubt there's going to be a consensus when there's a global audience with people from all sorts of different countries, backgrounds and belief systems. Different characters and factions resonate and appeal in a varied manner with that in mind.

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Originally Posted by casper123

I know he is only after the fight but feel there might have been alittle more to that .

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Not really. He showed up in Sharlayan and was like "Hey guys, where's my WoL at? Oh? Space? Cool, guess I'm heading there then. Later!" The only reason he gave us a hand was because we weren't going to give him his rematch if we were dead.