Astral Fire/Umbral Ice timers are actually bad mechanics at a meta level.

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Originally Posted by AnaseSkyrider

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Oh my god lol, what a sight to behold.

This word salad can basically be summed up as "I don't like BLM please change it for me" which is patently absurd, but as for some of the more questionable statements:

Sharpcast is extremely powerful oGCD that enables all post-triple BLM movement strategies. Describing the timer as "stress" is subjective, I don't find it any more stressful than not overcapping Polyglots.

If you're losing a large amount of DPS to a boss mechanic you probably didn't plan your rotation effectively. If a boss mechanic causes your timer and only your timer to inescapably drop (like a gaol), good news there are other classes that are harmed by forced downtime like Dragoon and DRK, drifting a big CD means you borderline can't recover without an opportunity for a reopener, or RDM who's mana economy for burst phases depends on uptime. BLM's can sting if you drop a Poly charge or get stunned in AF but these mechanics are few and far between, and sometimes don't even target the DPS like in e4s.

BLM is largely considered one of the most well designed jobs, at least from what I've seen and discussed. I haven't read all 10 pages but if you would clarify what is actually "bad game design" in an objective and player-agnostic sense I would be glad to hear it.

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Originally Posted by AnaseSkyrider

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Oh there's more lovely.

A distance between the skill floor and ceiling, and a barrier to entry are not inherently bad things. Experienced players who can manage the timer are being rewarded. Reward for mastery is a core tenet of game design. "Unnecessary" is a really garbage word to use because it doesn't make any argument other than for absolute and subjective minimalism.

If you don't understand why the timers are critical for managing the other stuff you mentioned, please stop commenting on BLM design.

If you fail a basic job mechanic your DPS is bad, yes, this is common. Glad you don't think timers are a high barrier to entry, invalidating your previous argument.

WoW is irrelevant, I don't care how nostalgically inclined you are.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

And you know what? It would be risky without timers. There is no innate part of timers that would take away the risk. Why do the timers make the class better? I have explained, vehemently, against belligerent and poorly informed counterpoints, that the timers don't add to the class. You say that the class is somehow better because it can be kicked in the teeth after it's already tripped and fallen on its face. Why is the additional punishment justified? What is it that's so important about the timers that the class cannot actually survive their removal? And if I get a nonsense answer like the guy claiming Monk is ruined because they dropped the skill floor while keeping its ceiling I am basically not going to dignify it with a response.

The unique challenge it provides is getting more BLM mains onto the class. That is what the timer actually does. The class will always, forever, be held back by this awful mechanic because purists like you don't want to change something that makes the class arbitrarily difficult for people to get in, while making it annoying to deal with all. the. time.

So again, what is so important about the timers that is worth literally all of the downsides it brings the class, other than an arbitrary feeling that you like and I despise when you have to ride the line at every single second of the rotation? Even Ninja doesn't have to deal with this and it has the only ability in the game remotely as punishing for a single mistake as BLM does for literally existing at content at all times.

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Timers give you reason to make substitutions and contractions in your rotation, such that you aren't simply cycling though the same sequence again and again. The last-minute swiftcast Despair (perhaps in place of a Fire 4) lacks the urgency and significance it would have on an ammo-based BLM because the ammo-based BLM's rotation is set in stone.

Timers add an element of risk that ammo doesn't. That risk in turn justifies higher reward in terms of damage throughput and challenges the player to make a different kind of calculation from that demanded by any other job.

I don't like Aetherial Manipulation. There, I said it. Wish it was most like NINs tele, let me just target the ground of something.

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Originally Posted by AnaseSkyrider

Except maintaining the timers is not an advanced mechanic that only the masters can do, it's the basic mechanic that you have to perfectly execute to be able to perform your main rotation. And if you don't, your DPS drops like a rock. It's not the extra icing on top that eeks out the extra DPS that only high-end players can do, that's what the procs, ABC, and polyglots are for. The timer is unnecessary punishment for bad timing on top of that.

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The timer is what makes the procs, ABC, and polyglots matter. Take away the timer and those things become pretty trivial. Polyglot would boil down to spend before capping. You could even just mash it just as it came up if you wanted to because without a timer you have all the room in the world to fit anything you want into your rotation. Procs would be much like polyglot minus the concern about overwriting thunder, and ABC just becomes mash the next button in your rotation until it goes off. There is almost no need for planning or looking ahead without the timer. Conversely, with the timer, you can't just isolate all these elements. They need to be considered together. It's the challenge and the allure of Black Mage. The rotation by itself isn't that engaging, but its simplicity has some nice synergy with the timer as that combination creates the need to focus on what you're doing without requiring a million buttons like some other classes do. The way that FF14 works right now, the timer is integral to BLM. Removing it would break the class.

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Originally Posted by battleshadow66

I don't like Aetherial Manipulation. There, I said it. Wish it was most like NINs tele, let me just target the ground of something.

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Now that they've given you the option to lock your ground-targeting cursor within ability range and instantly use the ability by just pressing its hotkey again I agree, but I suspect that Shukuchi on a 10s cooldown might be a liiiiittle too strong for BLM or indeed any job.

Oh hey I was about to come post something about this, but here it is already. I agree wholeheartedly that we need to rework it and I'm not even at endgame. Monk and Dragoon both got their overbearing timers removed for QoL, I think it's about time we work AF/UI into the abilities either as stacks or just continuous buffs if this is the direction the game wants to go. I don't wanna have to spam Transpose/Umbral Soul between pulls/mechanics just to keep Polyglot up if I'm also having to juggle so much other stuff and losing it all to a single misplay. No other class has so harsh a timer that really doesn't reward you for playing well, and only seems to make you feel bad when you mess up. Why's Black Mage gotta be the one with such a frustrating core mechanic?

Yoshi P said he wanted to make busy jobs feel more rewarding, well-... His favorite's entirely too busy a job right now even pre-endgame, and barely holding third place in DPS. I think it's time we standardize a little and make it less punishing like we did with Monk and Dragoon.

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Originally Posted by Aztectornado

Oh hey I was about to come post something about this, but here it is already. I agree wholeheartedly that we need to rework it and I'm not even at endgame. Monk and Dragoon both got their overbearing timers removed for QoL, I think it's about time we work AF/UI into the abilities either as stacks or just continuous buffs if this is the direction the game wants to go. I don't wanna have to spam Transpose/Umbral Soul between pulls/mechanics just to keep Polyglot up if I'm also having to juggle so much other stuff and losing it all to a single misplay. No other class has so harsh a timer that really doesn't reward you for playing well, and only seems to make you feel bad when you mess up. Why's Black Mage gotta be the one with such a frustrating core mechanic?

Yoshi P said he wanted to make busy jobs feel more rewarding, well-... His favorite's entirely too busy a job right now even pre-endgame, and barely holding third place in DPS. I think it's time we standardize a little and make it less punishing like we did with Monk and Dragoon.

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No, lets not and say we did.

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Originally Posted by Aztectornado

I don't wanna have to spam Transpose/Umbral Soul between pulls/mechanics just to keep Polyglot up

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Wouldn't it be better to fix the problem instead of changing everything else then? Make Umbral soul pause the ice timer so you don't need to spam it. Before it existed, that's what I thought a BLM downtime skill would look like. I don't know why they went with one that requires constant action.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

No, lets not and say we did.

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That's the second time in this thread you've failed to provide a counterpoint or add a meaningful rebuttal to something someone's said. This feels more like a verbal downvote than proper argument against doing the above, and feels moderately like an appeal to tradition. Please expand on why it'd be bad to standardize this job to be in line with others? If this is the direction the game's going in with periods of showy cutscenes, rail segments, and more focus on dodging for long periods between bursts, they should balance for that rather than strictly adhering to old standards where the player had full control the entire time.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

Wouldn't it be better to fix the problem instead of changing everything else then? Make Umbral soul pause the ice timer so you don't need to spam it. Before it existed, that's what I thought a BLM downtime skill would look like. I don't know why they went with one that requires constant action.

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I think that'd be a great solution too, or even giving it a use outside combat similar to how Monk gets Meditation to preload chakras, but both of these options would fail to address content prior to Umbral Soul being unlocked, and contributes heavily to my dislike of how the job plays as I'm leveling it. It's only now that I'm past 70 that it's starting to feel like a real job, but everywhere else it still has that old Monk smell where I feel like I'm having to spam something between pulls, then getting a hard reset in the combo that I have to start over from multiple longcast GCDs the moment a cutscene, rail segment, or suitably long segment of inaction causes me to drop a ball. God save me if I want to take a drink of water at any point in a dungeon, I have to spam Transpose the whole way just like I did with Form Change. Doesn't feel good for Repetitive Stress Injury.

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Originally Posted by Aztectornado

That's the second time in this thread you've failed to provide a counterpoint or add a meaningful rebuttal to something someone's said. This feels more like a verbal downvote than proper argument against doing the above, and feels moderately like an appeal to tradition. Please expand on why it'd be bad to standardize this job to be in line with others? If this is the direction the game's going in with periods of showy cutscenes, rail segments, and more focus on dodging for long periods between bursts, they should balance for that rather than strictly adhering to old standards where the player had full control the entire time.

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What counterpoint is there to "I don't like this, it's inconvenient, please change it for me" that hasn't already been said in this thread? It'd be bad to standardize this job because its uniqueness should be valued in a roster of 20 jobs. Thank god it doesn't play like anything else, sincerely.