"Swift completion" is relative to the game, not the community

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Originally Posted by Avidria

Or they're like me and just wanted to get through it and be done, and were one wipe away from straight up just leaving the group. Or they did say something, and got ignored, which I've also seen happen.

I've gotten to the point where I expect pug groups to be average to mediocre at best, and keep my expectations low, so I can put up with a lot of godawful play. Commenting, in my experience, isn't always worth it and doesn't always help, and I just generally don't care enough to speak up anymore unless things get absolutely ridiculous levels of bad. Doesn't mean the run was "good" though : p

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Using my Mt Gulg example, most tanks if we wipe will see the party can't handle the big pull and they'll voluntarily dial it back. I'm as chill in DF as someone can be but I'll speak up if they don't and suggest we go smaller. In the situation where we wiped three times, I told them let's split this one up so we can get through it and we can try again on the next one. When the next big pull didn't go so well, we started taking it a bit smaller and things went a lot smoother. I think too many people take it personally if they can't manage a big pull and think it's some sort of personal failing, but it's not. That particular collection of people can't manage it for whatever reason and there's no shame in that.

I've had tanks say they were drunk or high and they weren't gonna try to big pull, and I was pretty thankful for that. Fun runs because they were a hoot even on small pulls.

I think part of the problem for the OP and maybe also all the tanks who have recently complained of the 'gogogo', wall to wall pull type of attitude is mostly just fear. Fear of messing up and dying, costing the party more time wasted. However, I also think (as a tank main with all tanks done) that this fear is misplaced. With the one caveat of having a good (not awesome, even) healer, tanks should know that YOU WILL NEVER DIE if you use mitigation and self healing skills if needed at points. I think those hesitant to wall to wall pull maybe have just never done it and seen that you honestly have to TRY to die doing those pulls, especially in 80 dungeons.

I think if anxious tanks just let go of the fear of wiping, or dying, they'd see that it is best to just take a carefree attitude of 'I'll just pull everything I can b/c there's no way I'm gonna die anyway' mentality. Then again, perhaps I'm just crazy for thinking like that...but I haven't died at all on a wall to wall pull in all the dungeons and roulettes I do, at least not in recent memory over the past months. Again, with a new healer who is not comfortable with those pulls, and asks me not to - or if I see the dps can't keep up, of course I'll slow down -- that's part of party communication and understanding. But I think not pulling this way, or at least not attempting to, is done out of a misplaced fear that should be dropped // plus you'll have more fun ^^

You must have no idea about what you're doing to die in dungeons as a tank that's it.
Run -> take a pack 1 aoe -> Run -> take second pack 1 aoe etc -> Wall
Pop a strong CD or 2 little one -> Spam aoe until everything dies.
Kill the boss and repeat until it's done.
That's it, there is nothing more to it unless you're lost with ur abilities or have the reaction time of my 90 yo grandma you cant fuck that up.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I'm going to be a little blunt. If this FC tank of yours is that afraid, then he shouldn't be tanking in DF. It's completely unreasonable to expect three random strangers to go at a snail's pace in a 70 dungeon because a tank is this anxious. I get that he was new to the dungeon but if we're being honest here, they're all hallway simulators. When you've done one, you've done them all. Players aren't toxic for wanting a faster run, especially in old content.

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I'm also going to be blunt. You have missed the point of my post.

I have never said that tanks should pull one group at a time. If they are confident, they should pull as many as they think their team can handle. When I run roulette with my friends, whether I'm healing or tanking or dps, we pull the biggest group we can manage. Sometimes we can pull off Mt. Gulg but that's the trickiest one.

What I am actually asking is that confident, competent players try to help those less confident and competent. If the other three in the Ghimlyt Dark had been sympathetic and helpful instead of insulting and rude, my friend might still be playing. He might have discovered he COULD do whatever it was that was bothering him (mostly that he had never run the dungeon before). Similarly, if the healer is struggling (for whatever reason) try and assist instead of telling them to 'git gud'.

I'm not denying for a second that there are deeply unpleasant people who play poorly and don't care; you can't help them so by all means stop trying if they spit in your face. I've probably encountered as many if not more of those in the 'toxic' DF I am talking about.

Tldr: my friends and I (15 to 20 people depending on where we are in the xpac) don't use the DF unless we absolutely have to because of the number of rude and unhelpful people we've encountered there. So please TRY not to be one of them

That's not our job to teach others anything ? If you cant at least play somewhat right after hundreds of hours of plays it's on you and only you.
Why bother learning anything anyway, that's others job to carry me and teach me something that i will forget in 5 min and be patient and pat me on the back.
If you're at Stormblood/shadowbringer xpac and you need someone to teach you tanking you're the problem not the "mean toxic df players that expect me to do my job"

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Originally Posted by Elladie

Tldr: my friends and I (15 to 20 people depending on where we are in the xpac) don't use the DF unless we absolutely have to because of the number of rude and unhelpful people we've encountered there.

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If you're truly encountering so many evil baddies that want to personally uninstall your game in DF then maybe a little bit of self-reflection is in order? Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

seems like you're envious of those competent players that value their time

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You're playing a video game. You have time. If you can't spend more than 10 minutes don't queue with DF (since you never know who you gonna get) or eat the penalty. I'd do the same. I'm not losing sleep over some EXP.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

You're playing a video game. You have time. If you can't spend more than 10 minutes don't queue with DF (since you never know who you gonna get) or eat the penalty. I'd do the same. I'm not losing sleep over some EXP.

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Playing a video game =/= accept to waste time because someone else feels like it.

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Originally Posted by weebtext

If you're truly encountering so many evil baddies that want to personally uninstall your game in DF then maybe a little bit of self-reflection is in order? Just a thought.

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Goodness me, some of you people do have reading comprehension problems.

We are a GROUP (generally implies more than one, even if I hadn't specially said 15-20 people) of people who have played the game since release (some before but there was no DF then). There are quite a few of us. If we all ran two or three roulette a day for 10 years that's... A lot of roulette.

So yeah, we've had good runs as well as bad runs. We've had runs where an ice mage has insisted Fire2 costs too much MP, a healer in Amdapor Hard didn't have a job stone, many SMNs who refused to use Dots, tanks who wanted to kill everything down every side passage, tanks who wouldn't wait for other members who had to AFK RQ, tanks who wouldn't AoE, tanks who wouldn't use tank stance, healers who wouldn't dps, healers who wouldn't heal. We've also had healers running ahead because the tank is new and nervous, tanks refusing to slow down because the healer is new and nervous, various people wanting to vote kick someone because they aren't happy about them (for petty reasons as well as more serious ones) On some of these occasions the people involved responded well when approached patiently and pleasantly. On some we basically got told to ×××× off. After eight years or so of this we reached the conclusion we'd only use DF if we had no choice.

I'm really at a loss to work out why you think that merits some self-reflection on my part? Perhaps you'd care to elucidate?

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Originally Posted by Omedon

Believe me, if I had the option in the 60s to use NPCs I would (and no, running the vault to 71 doesn't count). My point is the 60s don't have that option, it's the only bracket with this problem post level 20, and it's never ok to be rude to someone pulling at a reasonable pace. I'm getting swift completion rewards. That is literally fast enough.

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I've gotten swift completion reward on hour long dungeon hells before.

So unless an hour is still quick to Square for a dungeon you can do in 15, I think "Swift" just means "Please kill it."