The clones of Emet.

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Originally Posted by GoldStarz

I think he's dead and dusted, but I mean it wouldn't be the first time they went back on a perfect death scene. *waves in the general area of our current antagonist*

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Yeeeeah, I realized how foolish that sounds after I wrote it.

Like, at this point I no longer believe any hero deaths, and I'm suspect of the villain deaths. Although I'm instead from the angle of 'desperately hoping they all stay dead, oh god, I can't tolerate another expansion of Emet'.

DId any of you watch the part of the live letter where Yoshi P recapped the launch trailer? He basically said that yes, it's Emet but he can't talk about it since it's a secret. What's so secret if it's just a voice/recording from the past? And if you listen carefully, he's not just doing area intro or background. He's commenting on current events both here and in the previous trailer.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Although I'm instead from the angle of 'desperately hoping they all stay dead, oh god, I can't tolerate another expansion of Emet'.

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...and yet there's a pretty sizable portion of players, myself included, who wish to see more of the Ancients and Ascians during the finale of their story.

I think it's important to remember that this is both a Final Fantasy game and an MMO. Both are designed to appeal to broad audience and wide variety of tastes. We've also seen it framed by the writers across various interviews that they do not see things as simple when it comes to reducing characters to 'heroes' and 'villains'. That, in itself, is very much a matter of perspective.

Of course, individuals are free to like or dislike specific characters and factions if they so wish. I just think there's still enough important questions to be answered and insight to be shown in regards to the Emet/Azem/Hythlodaeus dynamic for any of those characters to suddenly be dropped.

We don't yet know in what capacity Emet is even appearing in as of yet. It could be an illusion, a recorded message, an Echo flashback...or it could be him in the flesh. Yet if he does come back, out of all characters I think the one with strong ties to the underworld makes the most sense for a grand return. Even if it's only a temporary one.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

We've also seen it framed by the writers across various interviews that they do not see things as simple when it comes to reducing characters to 'heroes' and 'villains'. That, in itself, is very much a matter of perspective.

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They may have said that in the interviews, and the antagonists are indeed more nuanced and sympathetic, but the writers still had Ardbert straight up calling us "hero" in Shadowbringers. A part of the theme with him was also about "what is a hero?". You can't put this down as a language thing either because the title of the expansion was "Jet-black Villains" in Japanese.

I don't think I'd use those terms if you're trying to make a specific point.

If the dictionary says that a villain is "a character in a story or play who opposes the hero" and our character is called a hero in the same story where there's a character who's opposing us, then the opposing character is the villain. He may not be a mustache-twirling villain, but he's a villain regardless.


I don't dislike the character of Emet-Selch, he's my favorite villain in the game and one of my favorites in the series. But the level of admiration and even thirst toward him and antagonists in other media is a little creepy. Especially when people point out that he's a bad guy and others get up in arms and come out to defend him.

Delita Heiral is my all time favorite character in Final Fantasy as a whole, but I am under no delusions that he isn't a bad, bad man. Exactly like Emet-Selch, he's a tragic villain, but still a villain nonetheless and I wouldn't defend him if people point out all of the death he's caused, despite the fact that he had a point and in his own mind, he's right.

Cue another person who agreed that the VA for Emet and the writing was stellar- but who could not stand his character, hated his viewpoints (which I give them props for, that I actively emotionally responded to him as an antagonist instead of being bored of Zenos and ready to move on from that character even before the first instanced fight), never softened to him, and was so very delighted when he died. My biggest fear coming into Endwalker story-wise, aside from Zenos, was having Emet narrate the world zones, as I knew that would instantly and irrevocably lessen my enjoyment of the entire 6.0 story. One flashback or dungeon or key scene I was prepared for, but not something/someone constant to sour everything. If the Solus clones come back into the story in any function, I hope it's small and brief (the idea of them being fed to power Anima does appeal)

Reminder: the main cast is at various points referred to as villains by Vauthry, much as the Warriors of Darkness are seen as villains in the story of the First... and it is common to refer to one another as "sinner". They were indeed making a point, repeated in numerous interviews - that whether one is a villain or a hero is down to whose side you are on and from which side the term is emanating, and that it can thus be viewed both ways as a matter of perspective. This doesn't render the terms meaningless, so much as context-dependent. The title of the game in Japanese therefore does nothing to change that and is part of that perspective shift given the role of the protagonists on the First and how their opponents viewed them.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I don't dislike the character of Emet-Selch, he's my favorite villain in the game and one of my favorites in the series. But the level of admiration and even thirst toward him and antagonists in other media is a little creepy. Especially when people point out that he's a bad guy and others get up in arms and come out to defend him.

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How’s it creepy for people to have admiration or like an antagonist? I could say the same for people who do the same for some of the protagonists. Especially some of the underage ones…. Irregardless though they’ve stated numerous times the story isn’t black and white and heroes/villains depends on perspective. It’s also why yoshi p has made sure to use the term antagonists and not villain for the ascians.

Is it really that hard to just...not gatekeep? Like not point out he is a villain (like you said).

Like if roleplayers and artists want to interpret a character in some way...what harm can it do to portray them in a light that doesn't match up to your reading 100%?

This has always seemed like more of a dunk on the roleplayers/writers/drawers than an actual problem with the character to me. If you are commenting on an official forum you feel some duty to share the space with others, surely, in a way that is hopefully enriching.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

How’s it creepy for people to have admiration or like an antagonist? I could say the same for people who do the same for some of the protagonists. Especially some of the underage ones…. Irregardless though they’ve stated numerous times the story isn’t black and white and heroes/villains depends on perspective. It’s also why yoshi p has made sure to use the term antagonists and not villain for the ascians.

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I didn't say that it's wrong to have admiration in them. I said that the level of it is creepy. Like exactly to your point, one can admire Alisae, but if someone admires her too much, it's creepy because she's underage. To me, I find it odd that people can get completely obsessed over charismatic people who commit genocide for selfish reasons.

I like Emet-Selch as a character, but I'm not going to defend his actions or go all out on a crusade against Hydaelyn just because his story made me sad and I can see where he came from. Still doesn't change the fact that he went around mass-murdering for 10,000 years and doesn't see it as murder because our lives are insignificant to his. The people who agree with that statement are creepy.

The story may not be as black and white as other fantasy stories, but it doesn't change the fact the character has done bad things, and will continue to do so unless stopped. To gloss over that because he gave you the feels is just weird.

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Originally Posted by vormela

Is it really that hard to just...not gatekeep? Like not point out he is a villain (like you said).

Like if roleplayers and artists want to interpret a character in some way...what harm can it do to portray them in a light that doesn't match up to your reading 100%?

This has always seemed like more of a dunk on the roleplayers/writers/drawers than an actual problem with the character to me. If you are commenting on an official forum you feel some duty to share the space with others, surely, in a way that is hopefully enriching.

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How is talking about a main character in a game have anything to do with roleplayers? Roleplayers can do whatever they want, but this isn't a roleplaying forum, it's the lore forum.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I didn't say that it's wrong to have admiration in them. I said that the level of it is creepy. Like exactly to your point, one can admire Alisae, but if someone admires her too much, it's creepy because she's underage. To me, I find it odd that people can get completely obsessed over charismatic people who commit genocide for selfish reasons.

I like Emet-Selch as a character, but I'm not going to defend his actions or go all out on a crusade against Hydaelyn just because his story made me sad and I can see where he came from. Still doesn't change the fact that he went around mass-murdering for 10,000 years and doesn't see it as murder because our lives are insignificant to his. The people who agree with that statement are creepy.

The story may not be as black and white as other fantasy stories, but it doesn't change the fact the character has done bad things, and will continue to do so unless stopped. To gloss over that because he gave you the feels is just weird.




How is talking about a main character in a game have anything to do with roleplayers? Roleplayers can do whatever they want, but this isn't a roleplaying forum, it's the lore forum.

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I'm not saying Emet Selch is a saint. I'm sure he was a "evil" Ascian all set on continuing his work for the rejoining upon his return. What I'm saying is that once he meet us and saw that we have a fragment of Azem's soul and have another fragment walking beside us. He was finally open to the idea that we might be a worthy successor to their legacy and an alternative to the rejoining. He then proceed to test our worthiness all through ShB which resulted in us possessing 2 fragments of Azem's soul and the official holder of Azem's office as part of the 14. While Emet probably doesn't see all but he's basically a god compare to us with his thousands of thousands of years of experience among us, establishing the Allagan Empire and all his experience as a member of the convocation of 14. Just look at his body posture all through ShB until the end of 5.0 and see how it changed when you "defeated" him. You have to look past what he said and look at what he did as he's an arrogant SOB that thought everyone is beneath him.