6.0 Story Speculations

Why would Azem balk at the summoning of one primal and then turn around to be hypocritical and summon a second one using the exact same method the first was summoned?

I think alot of people are forgetting some key elements with Azem..

Azem left the convocation of 14 when they decided to Summon Zodiark, now if it was only because of considering Elidibus a dear colleague to him/her hasn't been fully explored yet. We do however know that not just elidibus was being used for the summoning but a crap ton of his people (I'm highly suspecting that Hytholodaeus was one of the ones that volunteered for one of the summoning rituals used by the convocation and highly doubt that Zenos is the reincarnation or anyone ELSE Emet Selch has seen in his entire life or he would have Reconized the COLOR of the soul as was his ability.)

We also know that the current incarnation has the same qualities as Azem did, the wandering, the helping people and the joy of fighting. Remember the PC literally gets pissed at G'raha for offering a second time to kill himself to free the Scions of being chained to the First.

I honestly can not see Azem even wanting to participate in that type of Summoning Ritual.

It's been speculated since the story started that the Path of the Twelve/Scions overlap with the Twelve themselves. Gaia is pretty much walking proof that soul succession is agendered, so working from there...

WoL (Azem) -> Azeyma
Alphinaud and Alisaie -> Nald'thal
Yda/Lyse -> Halone or Rhalgr?
Papalymo -> Oschon?
Y'shtola -> Rhalgr?
Thancred -> Menphina
Tataru -> Byregot
Urianger -> Thaliak
Minfilia -> Nymeia?
G'raha -> Althyk
Esitnien -> Halone?

At least half of these are wrong (two matches for Rhalgr?), but I think I've conveyed the idea of how the game is played. Still not sure who fits Llymlaen or Nophica, but by my reckoning there's just Moenbryda and Krile left, maybe a surprise Ysayle or Haurchefant. Not sure of the implications of filling in these ranks with dead characters, either.

My original 2.X suspicion was we'd simply sacrifice our allies every expansion until the number hit 12, and then we'd meet them all as force ghosts before the final battle. That could still happen (ten times!?) in Endwalker, but it would be almost too heavy for the current tone of the story. I've personally never been too big on heroic sacrifices when the POV character is contractually required to survive.

All this "the Scions might be the Twelve reincarnated" stuff feels very square peg round hole to me. If we're working under the assumption that the Twelve are also Hydaelyn's summoners, then that wouldn't that discount every Scion except for Arenvald, Minfilia, and Krile? And if we're not, and they were just... some other guys and gals who popped up after Hydaelyn sundered the world, what does it matter if some of them might have reincarnated into the likes of Thancred, Y'shtola, etc.?

I mean, it's also quite likely (and meaningful) that at least a few of them aren't. "Reigns of history back in the hands of man," and all that.


I'm just throwing stuff out there. It's not about being "right" so much as it is about analyzing all the possible angles so whatever they throw at us doesn't feel tacked on when it eventually hits.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Why would Azem balk at the summoning of one primal and then turn around to be hypocritical and summon a second one using the exact same method the first was summoned?

I think alot of people are forgetting some key elements with Azem..

Azem left the convocation of 14 when they decided to Summon Zodiark, now if it was only because of considering Elidibus a dear colleague to him/her hasn't been fully explored yet. We do however know that not just elidibus was being used for the summoning but a crap ton of his people (I'm highly suspecting that Hytholodaeus was one of the ones that volunteered for one of the summoning rituals used by the convocation and highly doubt that Zenos is the reincarnation or anyone ELSE Emet Selch has seen in his entire life or he would have Reconized the COLOR of the soul as was his ability.)

We also know that the current incarnation has the same qualities as Azem did, the wandering, the helping people and the joy of fighting. Remember the PC literally gets pissed at G'raha for offering a second time to kill himself to free the Scions of being chained to the First.

I honestly can not see Azem even wanting to participate in that type of Summoning Ritual.

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I think this is a good point. But when it comes to that picture in Rak'tika the biggest detail that sticks out is the Louisoix like staff held by character in the foreground. If they are not summoning a primal, then they are certainly doing something else very drastic like sealing a primal away or stopping the Sound. It also has to be a historical event so important that its shares wall space with the rise of Ronka and Ardbert saving the First.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

All this "the Scions might be the Twelve reincarnated" stuff feels very square peg round hole to me. If we're working under the assumption that the Twelve are also Hydaelyn's summoners, then that wouldn't that discount every Scion except for Arenvald, Minfilia, and Krile? And if we're not, and they were just... some other guys and gals who popped up after Hydaelyn sundered the world, what does it matter if some of them might have reincarnated into the likes of Thancred, Y'shtola, etc.?

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It's not so far fetched of an idea if "The Twelve" were friends of Azem and summoned Hydaelyn, as long as they didn't all sacrifice their lives for the summoning. Or much like how Azem is back in the current time line as the WOL, they were reincarnated in the first age to save the world from the unsettling affects of post-sundering.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

It's been speculated since the story started that the Path of the Twelve/Scions overlap with the Twelve themselves. Gaia is pretty much walking proof that soul succession is agendered, so working from there...

WoL (Azem) -> Azeyma
Alphinaud and Alisaie -> Nald'thal
Yda/Lyse -> Halone or Rhalgr?
Papalymo -> Oschon?
Y'shtola -> Rhalgr?
Thancred -> Menphina
Tataru -> Byregot
Urianger -> Thaliak
Minfilia -> Nymeia?
G'raha -> Althyk
Esitnien -> Halone?

At least half of these are wrong (two matches for Rhalgr?), but I think I've conveyed the idea of how the game is played. Still not sure who fits Llymlaen or Nophica, but by my reckoning there's just Moenbryda and Krile left, maybe a surprise Ysayle or Haurchefant. Not sure of the implications of filling in these ranks with dead characters, either.

My original 2.X suspicion was we'd simply sacrifice our allies every expansion until the number hit 12, and then we'd meet them all as force ghosts before the final battle. That could still happen (ten times!?) in Endwalker, but it would be almost too heavy for the current tone of the story. I've personally never been too big on heroic sacrifices when the POV character is contractually required to survive.

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Definitely put Krile on that list. So that makes 11. And Ryne, although is she is more like Minfilia's daughter then soul inheritor, would still replace Minfilia's spot on the list instead of getting her own spot.

Still leaving one spot for a Zenos redemption arc or new addition to the party like Fordola.

It's possible there's some sort of connection but honestly it feels like a stretch to me trying to fit the twelve onto the scions like that.

A stretch? Maybe. But we'd be silly not to at least ponder it, lest we end up in another "Crystal Exarch is not G'raha Tia" situation.

One thing that hasn't been picked up on, is how Azem actually has/had aspects of at least two seperate members of the Twelve not one (the obvious name reference in Azeyma along with the sun symbolism, plus they also had Oschon's title of 'the Wanderer', rather than Azeyma's title of 'the Warden'), so I have a crazy headcanon now that Azem is/was The Twelve combined.

The stories about the Twelve were entirelly about Azem's crazy exploits before, during and after the Terminus and Sundering, with various aspects of their appearence, abilities, personality and political position undergoing memetic mutation throughout the millenia from the real accounts of a single powerful yet mortal individual into stories about a whole pantheon of squabbling immortal gods and goddesses (after all, Hydaelyn and Zodiark's very existence was all but forgotten until recently).

It's total darksteelfoil, and the idea is so full of holes the Beetles could have written a song about it, but it still seems odd that Azem's title didn't fit the member of the Twelve they're clearly most associated with, instead taking another member of the Twelve's title, so anything goes with this theory I guess. :p