Been running Ridorana Lighthouse the whole week and...

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Equal =\= fair, as been explained to you before. And if you really don't see what's wrong with giving the same rolling rights to someone who mains a job, and someone who doesn't even have the job unlocked... well. Not much more to say, is there?

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I have never said that fair and equal are the same. I have said that in eyes this current system is more fair then what we had before simply because I do not agree with the concept of granting certain players within a group priority at the reward that was earned by the collective simply because they happened to be the right role / job. Just as you clearly feel differently. What I have said is that overall the current system puts everyone on equal footing. Sorry as I said English is not my native tongue. When brought up how I thought the current system is fair in my eyes was to show how fairness can is based off ones opinion and perspective. Yet as you have mentioned in other posts this new system is overall more equal on an individual level, and equality when it is possible is a priority to me, even if he screws over some. Since either way both systems have the potential to screw someone over.

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Originally Posted by Trunks

If there was no problem they should not have changed it. Your "ideal" is all well and good, but the fact is that no other content handles loot rolls this way -- and there are a number of good reasons for that. In deviating from the way people generally expect the game to work (because that's how the game has worked in all content up to that point), they really should have offered a compelling rationale. No such rationale has been articulated, to my knowledge, by any party.

Perhaps the reasoning is "it makes it easier to gear off-Jobs". Well, maybe, but we're talking about a raid with a weekly loot lockout. (And besides, do we really want to start giving people gear for Jobs which they aren't earning by playing that Job?) The only other thing I can come up with is that they're trying to force people who want gear from Lighthouse to have to run it more to get what they want from it. That's an odd route to take for second-rate gear that's supposed to help players "catch up" (and almost comical given the absurdities they've unleashed with their failure to implement hard or soft enrages on the bosses in there).

It just makes no sense, from any angle.

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You are right if things went back to old system I would not lose sleep over the change, nor did I ever really expect them to make such a change since it is so far out the norm for how things have been handled in the past. It was a pleasant surprise when they did announce the change, since frankly I do not think many really requested the change even on the JP side it seemed like it was not a very popular idea. This system change is 100% outside the norm and one I do not expect to last very long. In the end I do support the change since never really understood the concept behind granting individuals priority over the group. Granted I dislike RNG, but if things have to be RNG this is why I am more in favor of a token based system but that is not all that important for the topic at hand. Though I do understand why many are not a huge fan of the change either.

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Originally Posted by Awha

in my eyes the current system is more fair

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There is nothing "fair" about someone getting gear for a Job they haven't even leveled to 7 over someone for whom that Job is the only one that they've leveled to 70. That's a rather perverse notion of "equity", which conveniently erases the labors of the players in question. It runs counter to the underlying, egalitarian principle of a sub-based MMO: that you achieve things and earn rewards consummate with the time and effort you put in. Lifting a piece of tank gear from the hands of a tank who genuinely needs or wants it when I haven't bothered to level a tank Job, couldn't be bothered to queue as a tank, and don't plan to do either of those things in the future is not a "level playing field". These buttons are appropriately labeled "Greed" and "Need". Your argument seems to be "Greed Is Good", which is not true at all -- particularly in a community developed around team-based content.

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Originally Posted by Awha

ISorry I really do not see how a job / role inherently grants priority over another.

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So you can't see why a tank should get tank loot instead of a healer or dps?

You must be trolling. This is too ridiculous to be true.

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Originally Posted by Trunks

There is nothing "fair" about someone getting gear for a Job they haven't even leveled to 7 over someone for whom that Job is the only one that they've leveled to 70. That's a rather perverse notion of "equity", which conveniently erases the labors of the players in question. It runs counter to the underlying, egalitarian principle of a sub-based MMO: that you achieve things and earn rewards consummate with the time and effort you put in. Lifting a piece of tank gear from the hands of a tank who genuinely needs or wants it when I haven't bothered to level a tank Job, couldn't be bothered to queue as a tank, and don't plan to do either of those things in the future is not a "level playing field". These buttons are appropriately labeled "Greed" and "Need". Your argument seems to be "Greed Is Good", which is not true at all -- particularly in a community developed around team-based content.

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How is that not putting each member in the same situation and granting them an equal chance at walking away with piece gear they want for whatever reason, be it for glam, upgrade, desynth, comms, or sitting in the persons inventory. If every player put forth the effort to clear the encounter why shouldn't they be granted equal roll on what dropped from said encounter? Let us be fair I do get salty when I lose a roll but I will never say the item is something I "need" sure it would be nice to have but it is not something I absolutely need. Since it was a team effort, so the team should have equal chance at getting what drops the reason behind why they want the item is beside the point. I know my stance is odd, but if it took a group to earn the reward the group should all have a chance to roll on reward. I am in the camp that everything we strive for in FFXIV is greed based. I want to have BiS, I want the upgrade, I want the glam, etc . . . I never thought of it as I need this BiS, I need upgrade, I need this glam. Though I do see why players think along those lines that that is okay.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

So you can't see why a tank should get tank loot instead of a healer or dps?

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I do get where you are coming from I was upset when I lost a piece of tank gear to a player that spent more time dead then alive. In my eyes they were still present for the kill and since we did not remove the player from the group they were entitled to the gear just as much as everyone else even if it pained me to see the piece of gear go to that player. Please understand I do not feel the current or even the previous system were perfect in anyway and I do understand how both have the potential to screw over players, and I will agree that the new system has greater chance to screw over players. Though I do feel this system would make more sense if it worked on a token based system and allowed the player who one the token to trade it in for the piece of gear the want. Me personally cannot see how role / job inherently should grant someone priority over the group itself.

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Originally Posted by Awha

. Me personally cannot see how role / job inherently should grant someone priority over the group itself.

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It's funny you talk about the group when the new system benefits individuals a lot more.
What benefits the group? Any job rolling Need on an upgrade in the first chest of the run, equipping it, and thus performing better for the rest of the run. Even if they got the item from the last chest, it means they have their upgrade for the next instance they'll run and can perform better still.
What does not, in fact, benefit the group? Someone who can't equip the gear winning it instead of someone who actually needs it, forcing them to run with sub-optimal gear the rest of the raid.

The assumption is that because you can greed, you'd be running on your main class, but as been covered at length before that is both wrong and irrelevant.
1. People will not run on their mains if they don't want to, and no greed rule is going to change that. So we're still going to see under-geared people in there.
2.. A lot of people don't have their mains geared up that much and rely on these raids to actually improve their gear. Therefore the dev team's assumption is completely detached from reality.

If they want people to go in with better gear the solution isn't Greed-Only, it's to raise the minimum ilvl, alternatively tune the content easier (please don't).

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

It's funny you talk about the group when the new system benefits individuals a lot more. What benefits the group? Any job rolling Need on an upgrade in the first chest of the run, equipping it, and thus performing better for the rest of the run. Even if they got the item from the last chest, it means they have their upgrade for the next instance they'll run and can perform better still.
What does not, in fact, benefit the group? Someone who can't equip the gear winning it instead of someone who actually needs it, forcing them to run with sub-optimal gear the rest of the raid.

The assumption is that because you can greed, you'd be running on your main class, but as been covered at length before that is both wrong and irrelevant.
1. People will not run on their mains if they don't want to, and no greed rule is going to change that. So we're still going to see under-geared people in there.
2.. A lot of people don't have their mains geared up that much and rely on these raids to actually improve their gear. Therefore the dev team's assumption is completely detached from reality.

If they want people to go in with better gear the solution isn't Greed-Only, it's to raise the minimum ilvl, alternatively tune the content easier (please don't).

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I feel it benefits the group in the sense that everyone within the group that helped clear the encounter has equal opportunity at what has dropped. On a individual level I have admitted it has the potential the screw over more players. Sure an item may not go to a player that could use it in that moment, but if the encounter can be cleared as is, should the rest of the group not be allowed equal opportunity at the item simply because it is an upgrade for another player? I just have a hard time figuring out how we as players can determine objectively that ones reasons for wanting something trumps another. I mean I guess you could say if that person's gear was at the point that it was hindrance to the group and the drop in question would alleviate that then yes I can see how that would be an overall net gain for the group. To that I would ask why is that person doing the content with such bad gear if one upgrade makes up such large difference for the rest of the run.

Wish I could articulate my point better, since I figured for a lot of people my position is absurd.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I feel it benefits the group in the sense that everyone within the group that helped clear the encounter has equal opportunity at what has dropped.

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Loot and scoot. Another issue that was there before this change, but at least then the dps who wanted to roll on that healer piece couldn't because the healers could Need on it. Now they can't.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Loot and scoot. Another issue that was there before this change, but at least then the dps who wanted to roll on that healer piece couldn't because the healers could Need on it. Now they can't.

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I am sorry Billy, I get where you are coming from it, but I just cannot see how granting one player within a group priority over giving everyone an equal opportunity at what has dropped due the collective effort of the group is a bad thing. I understand that I am sure many players have been negatively impacted by this change for every negative outcome I am sure someone in this game has had a positive one due to the change. If I look at it from you perspective I could see how one would feel slighted by the change. For lack of better words it is hard for me to accept another desire at something that has dropped over another. Sure the item might be an upgrade, but would that slight upgrade provide such a huge boon to the groups effectiveness that it should granted priority over everyone else in the group? It is hard for me to example but I simply cannot come to terms with that notion. I guess it comes down to I do not believe in the concept of "need" and everything is want based for me when it comes to rewards. People will make their case as to why they feel their want has more value for another, but it is just hard for me to see the difference between need and want when it comes to a video game.

I am sure in the end though the point that the majority in this thread have made will not fall of deaf ears that this change will be reverted.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

It really isn't, though?

You: I don't want that person to win that item. (though that can still happen even under the new system!)
me: I want to win that item (because it is an upgrade for me).

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That's not my argument at all. I'm saying I'd rather have someone run the raid on a job they're comfortable with and maybe get an upgrade/glamour for an alt job rather than run a job they aren't as comfortable with just to stack the odds in their favor. True it's not guaranteed that the player is any good on their main, but that was the same even with the need system.

Not arguing necessarily at you, but some aren't complaining so much about "I want this item as an upgrade" but instead "I don't want that other player to win because they aren't on the appropriate job."

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Originally Posted by Seniade

This was worse with the old system: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...90#post4019190
I quite frequently saw players horribly under-geared using accessories to bypass the min item level, that didn't know how to play their alt class, just to skew the gear rolls in their favor.

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And now they can do the exact same thing but roll on gear that someone that does great for the party would need and win it thus take it away from someone that did their job and that needed it.

Also people should not forget that you could have still updated your other jobs with the old system. If no certain DD was in the group, anyone could greed on it, and if the healers or the tank did not need the item in any way they could pass on it and someone else could get it for the job. But at least it gave those that go into this with certain jobs the first chance to roll on it.

Now its just: Hopefully none of the other 7 people roll on the tank/healer/DD pieces that I need and hopefully I get anything out of this at all. And honestly the tank and healer pieces are probably the most wanted ones next to those for glamour. So all the tanks and healers that are running it now will never have the safety of the old system, where they could at least now that they got the item with a 100 or 50 % chance if it finally drops.