Stop with the pay to win advanages for retainers, suggestions on fixes

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Originally Posted by Remedi

When they'll shut down our argument by saying that we are wrong because they are not selling us power what will you say?

The app is Terrible because it's a QOL kept away by a paywall which is not directly a pay to win. We don't need for the company to have an easy argument to use against us, we need for them to understand that this premium currency or boost will not be acceptable for ANY REASONS

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I think you're right that it's better to avoid "pay-to-win" in this discussion, and just focus on the IAP scheme.

The "pay-to-win" debate is an abyss even more bottomless than the one surrounding Ishgard and ultimately proves nothing. If they didn't sell retainers (or didn't use them to interact with the marketboard), people could just create more characters to get more retainers/market access, and when they run of out of characters, they could just create more service accounts and buy more subscriptions. (You can friend characters across service accounts, trade between them, have two windows open at once... etc.) So it quickly degrades into this debate about the semantics of mechanics, and how "convenient" or "easy" they make it for those willing to pay. And at the end of the day, someone's time/availability is much more critical here anyway.

So yeah, the debate really needs to center on the payment scheme/structure for the app.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

When they'll shut down our argument by saying that we are wrong because they are not selling us power what will you say?

The app is Terrible because it's a QOL kept away by a paywall which is not directly a pay to win. We don't need for the company to have an easy argument to use against us, we need for them to understand that this premium currency or boost will not be acceptable for ANY REASONS

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I did not make any argument for anything in this game being pay to win in that post. I simply stated that saying pay to win requires "winning" is wrong. Also, this thread's major subject is Retainers, not the app, which seem to have gone completely over everyone's head.

However, yes, I would agree with the OP about retainers in particular. They allow for a vastly increased selling power, which is a highly competitive part of the game. It makes it more difficult for those who don't have the increased amount of retainers to compete, therefore negatively impacting their experience.

Allow us to hire extra retainers with gil or give us enough to cover the basic types. Until then, you can take my extra retainer over my dead body.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I did not make any argument for anything in this game being pay to win in that post. I simply stated that saying pay to win requires "winning" is wrong. Also, this thread's major subject is Retainers, not the app, which seem to have gone completely over everyone's head.

However, yes, I would agree with the OP about retainers in particular. They allow for a vastly increased selling power, which is a highly competitive part of the game. It makes it more difficult for those who don't have the increased amount of retainers to compete, therefore negatively impacting their experience.

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While I would agree on that, the retort that you'll probably get is that the game is focused on combat content and those extra retainers don't really give you an advantage in that.
That's why i say that our point needs to be fool-proof
If we have any opening they will use it against us

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

It makes it more difficult for those who don't have the increased amount of retainers to compete, therefore negatively impacting their experience.

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So I guess you consider Standard and Legacy accounts pay to win compared to Entry accounts, right ?

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

The game is basically a F2P game with a subscription at this point.

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I personally think you're going way too far with that.
We're still getting dungeons. We're still getting trials, raids, new quests, etc. The only things locked behind a paywall are cosmetic items, retainers, and now this Marketboard bs which is the first example of SE going overboard.
So while I agree that if SE follows this trend, it will end horribly; I don't believe it is worth unsubbing YET.

More retainers means more ways to earn Gil. With more Gil you could easily buy all the necessary materials that you need to craft or let others craft the gear that is needed for the new raid. With this new gear that you have really fast you then can try to tackle savage which will give you an advantage to all those that did not have the gil thus did not buy the stuff. Yes people can make gil even without that but its still easier when you are already good at doing Gil and get more options to do so. There was a thread a bit ago about a player that sells huge amounts of things thanks to gathering bots. With the app and real life money he could change the MB prices much more without needing to be in the game.

I mean any other P2W boost only helps someone get something easier. It does not stop others from getting there without that. The same with extra retainers and the app. You can still get a lot of gil without it but if you had them you would probably make even more gil and that faster. Doing something faster thanks to retainers and the app can kinda count as a win too. You win more time for others things.

(Also its a shame how people cant really stay on topic and have to attack the OP just because of other topics. This is not a troll topic so it should not attacked like one. Either post your opinon about the topic without attacks or just ignore it.)

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

I personally think you're going way too far with that.
We're still getting dungeons. We're still getting trials, raids, new quests, etc. The only things locked behind a paywall are cosmetic items, retainers, and now this Marketboard bs which is the first example of SE going overboard.
So while I agree that if SE follows this trend, it will end horribly; I don't believe it is worth unsubbing YET.

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F2P games get new content, too.

Anyway, I'm glad you're still enjoying it. The new content is definitely too far apart for me to sub anywhere near constantly. Beginning and end of an expansion are pretty much the only times where it's truly worth it for me. But even that is becoming increasingly difficult for me with all the distasteful things they keep adding, and the lack of things I'd like to see.

It's worth noting, if you care for some background info of where I'm coming from, I was since the beginning and still am 100% against the cash shop. Then retainers came. And now there's this app.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

More retainers means more ways to earn Gil. With more Gil you could easily buy all the necessary materials that you need to craft or let others craft the gear that is needed for the new raid. With this new gear that you have really fast you then can try to tackle savage which will give you an advantage to all those that did not have the gil thus did not buy the stuff.

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Savage is released every 6 months. By that time, any Free Company that tackles it in a competitive way will have more gils that whatever is needed to buy (And Pentameld) the brand new crafted items released at the same time as savage.

Those asking how is getting more gil = pay to win should read these threads http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-WOW-Tokens%29 and http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ame-Time-Token The community decided it's pay to win.

After reading those threads how can you come here and say retainers aren't pay to win?