When will we get the PVP system for PVE ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Casters already received something similar with higher tier replacing lower ones. You no longer need 3 slots for Thunder, Ruin and Stone.

Frankly, I don't understand why they didn't fuse Blizzard and Blizzaga...and Fire and Firaga (With an adjustement to Firestarter)

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Probably because Fire III and Blizzard III function differently than Fire and Blizzard.

Fire and Blizzard require you to actively use Transpose to switch between Astral Fire and Umbral Ice, and they only grant 1 stack per use up to 3. Fire III and Blizzard III switch between the two for you without having to Transpose, and automatically grant you 3 stacks of each. While they could have adjusted for this, they chose for some reason not to. Perhaps a BLM main can provide more insight on that, but all I can say is the two function differently, where as a lot of the other upgrade spells were more or less the same (did the same thing with slightly higher potencies/mana costs like Stone > Stone II > Stone III > Stone IV; Malefic I > Malefic II > Malefic III; Ruin > Broil > Broil II; etc.). Also, Fire is the only Fire than can proc Firestarter, so I can see why they kept Fire for that very reason. Blizzard is just sort of there still, but could be they kept it not only because of different function, but to have the Fire - Blizzard pair.

When I think about it, the other similar spells they kept, they kept because they function differently. For SCH, Ruin was upgraded to Broil, but they kept Ruin II, the insta-cast (can’t speak for SMN on this, but I’m pretty sure Ruin II and Ruin III are still separate, because they function differently from one another—one is insta-cast for use when having to move, the other has a cast time). Same for Aero I > Aero II and Aero III: one is single-target, insta-cast; the other AOE with a cast bar. Different functioning.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

People have this idea that doing 1 2 3 on their keyboard makes them skilled and adds challenge to the gameplay. So when they see an idea to have only to tap 3 times one button instead of 3, for some reason its akin to dumbing the game down.

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It has nothing whatsoever to do with skill but feel. Pressing 1-2-3 in quick succession feels more active whereas pressing 1-1-1 endlessly feels incredibly dull. There's a reason people complain about RDM aoe or DRG/DRK pre-Abyssal and Sonic Thrust, respectively. Now if they added a series of different combo finishers, perhaps it works. Granted, then you aren't saving any button space, so what's the point?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Probably because Fire III and Blizzard III function differently than Fire and Blizzard.

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Do BLMs really use Blizzard after gaining Blizzaga ? And, without Firestarter attached to it, I'm not sure people would use Fire instead of Firaga. Of course Blizzara and Fira would be kept, since they're AoEs.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

can’t speak for SMN on this, but I’m pretty sure Ruin II and Ruin III are still separate, because they function differently from one another—one is insta-cast for use when having to move, the other has a cast time

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Ruin and Ruin II are separate but Ruin is upgraded to Ruin III

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Same for Aero I > Aero II and Aero III: one is single-target, insta-cast; the other AOE with a cast bar.

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But Aero II lost its cast time so that it could replace Aero. However, Stone lost its heavy effect to be replace by all subsequent tiers.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Aside from the Mudras, NIN has theee different combo enders:
Spinning Slash > Gust Slash > Aeolian Edge
Spinning Slash > Gust Slash > Shadow Fang
Spinning Slash > Gust Slash > Armor Crush

When you use each is dependent on your timers (Shadow Fang and Huton). Plus you only want to duality Aeolian Edge. These consolidated combos would pose problem for NIN as well.

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It seems the problem isn't combo enders. It seems to be that there are 3 combo enders branching off one skill.

How do you add more complexity but remove hotbar real estate? Move the combo goal post.

Gust Slash > Aeolian Edge
Gust Slash >Spinning Slash > Shadow Fang
Spinning Slash > Gust Slash > Armor Crush

Before you always did the first two weaponskills with no choice and had choice between what the third will be. Change it from one choice at the 3 or 3 choices at the first.

Like this:

Do I two step for spammy damage?
Gust/spin/shadow for dot and slash debuff?
Spin/gust/armor for huton replenish?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Do BLMs really use Blizzard after gaining Blizzaga ? And, without Firestarter attached to it, I'm not sure people would use Fire instead of Firaga. Of course Blizzara and Fira would be kept, since they're AoEs.

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That would be a question for a BLM main. I know the basics of how the job works; I do not know optimal rotations for it. As for using Fire over Fire III, I’m fairly certain it boils down to MP costs. You can use Fire more than Fire III, i.e., it’s inefficient to spam Fire III.

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Ruin and Ruin II are separate but Ruin is upgraded to Ruin III

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I was fairly certain that was how it was, but I don’t play SMN. But again, different ways of functioning, so that’s probably why the kept both Ruin II and Ruin III / Broil II for SMN / SCH. Plus, doesn’t Ruin III proc and change into Ruin IV when you get a proc?

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But Aero II lost its cast time so that it could replace Aero. However, Stone lost its heavy effect to be replace by all subsequent tiers.

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They still kept one that is insta-cast, single target and one that is AOE with a cast bar though. They could have just done away with Aero/Aero II all together and upgraded it to Aero III, but since Aero I and Aero II were single-target and Aero III AOE, different ways of functioning. Hence why both are still there.

Bio > Bio II (SCH) > Bio III (SMN), Miasma > Miasma III (SMN) and Combust > Combust II (AST), while the latter spells had cast bars (Bio II and Combust II), they were both single-target. So it just made sense to consolidate and upgrade the two. They don’t function differently really with regards to single target versus AOE (like Aero / Aero II versus Aero III). Same thing for BRD’s DoTs (Venomous Bite > Caustic Bite & Windbite > Stormbite): they’re both single-target, they were just upgraded. But, I’m fairly certain that if CB and SB had been AOE skills that left DoTs on targets, they probably would have kept both (would have been a weird design but they did give BRDs cast times at one point so).

That’s why I think the DoTs were consolidated as such.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

It seems the problem isn't combo enders. It seems to be that there are 3 combo enders branching off one skill.

How do you add more complexity but remove hotbar real estate? Move the combo goal post.

Gust Slash > Aeolian Edge
Gust Slash >Spinning Slash > Shadow Fang
Spinning Slash > Gust Slash > Armor Crush

Before you always did the first two weaponskills with no choice and had choice between what the third will be. Change it from one choice at the 3 or 3 choices at the first.

Like this:

Do I two step for spammy damage?
Gust/spin/shadow for dot and slash debuff?
Spin/gust/armor for huton replenish?

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I don’t really think that would go over well. Because NIN used to have just a 1-2 combo (Spinning Slash > Shadow Fang) and it just felt incomplete to do it; I recall hearing a few NINs complain about just having a 1-2.

A question like this would be something better to ask a NIN main. I just brought it up as an aside and as another possible issue. But, I’m a BRD main. Not the person to ask when it comes to NIN rotations/optimization. However, from what I have read, if the boss moves or turns and you cannot hit your rear positional for Aeolian Edge, it’s recommended to Armor Crush instead. Combo consolidation would pose an issue for that sort of situation.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Casters already received something similar with higher tier replacing lower ones. You no longer need 3 slots for Thunder, Ruin and Stone.

Frankly, I don't understand why they didn't fuse Blizzard and Blizzaga...and Fire and Firaga (With an adjustement to Firestarter)

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I gotta admit I do enjoy that.
Especially when doing leveling roulette or fates. Having it adjust for me instead of fumbling through bars is certainly a perk.

I suppose it wouldn't hurt for them to look to see if anything can be combined. (It's not like taking a look means they have to make drastic changes, might just be one or two changes here and there)

I do think one of the failures of this thread was calling this a "pvp system" though. While the OP might have meant it for just the skill combinations into one button, to many of us "pvp system" includes that + all the other skills that were removed and other changes (ex: scholar doesn't even have dots in pvp system, it's like a whole different job!).

This thread might have been more successful if it hadn't mentioned pvp at all and just asked to consolidate more skills to auto-adjust based on levels/stance/other-factors.

Even with the edit to clarify, those 2 words still being in the thread means people will think it's something else.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

I suppose it wouldn't hurt for them to look to see if anything can be combined. (It's not like taking a look means they have to make drastic changes, might just be one or two changes here and there)

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Or, there is another way...

• Allow macros to queue like native skills
• Create a command to put a macro to a specific slot

There you are, each player could create his own "evolutive" slots.

I really don't feel like having three separate Hakaze buttons in order to do my full combos, so no thanks.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

It has nothing whatsoever to do with skill but feel. Pressing 1-2-3 in quick succession feels more active whereas pressing 1-1-1 endlessly feels incredibly dull. There's a reason people complain about RDM aoe or DRG/DRK pre-Abyssal and Sonic Thrust, respectively. Now if they added a series of different combo finishers, perhaps it works. Granted, then you aren't saving any button space, so what's the point?

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Ok, I can actually understand and get behind that line of thinking.

All the more reason if such a thing were to be implemented, it would need to be optional.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I don’t really think that would go over well. Because NIN used to have just a 1-2 combo (Spinning Slash > Shadow Fang) and it just felt incomplete to do it; I recall hearing a few NINs complain about just having a 1-2.

However, from what I have read, if the boss moves or turns and you cannot hit your rear positional for Aeolian Edge, it’s recommended to Armor Crush instead. Combo consolidation would pose an issue for that sort of situation.

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I would think the number of button presses would matter less than a worthwhile animation/function.

Change Gust Slash into something animation wise like Shoulder Tackle with a quick flip at the end, but gust will put you behind the enemy for easier access to the back positional for the two combo.

If Gust Slash comes after Spinning Edge, the flip at the end moves ninja to the side of the target setting up the Armor Crush finisher.