While you can say that, it fails to detract from my original point, which is that tank DPS is a mandatory core of the tanking jobs. They can't tank and not dps, it's required of them to put up some form of numbers. Healers don't have that, 'In order to heal, I have to do damage first' clause of their job's core gameplay, which is to keep people healthy and unfloor tanking. It's an extra sauce for the steak, and while it might be nice to have, it's by no means mandatory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynfael
Your Stance on Cleric Stance
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10-30-2016, 04:03 AMThunda_Cat_SMASH
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10-30-2016, 04:15 AMRennies
Its mandatory if you want to contribute more as a player. Just like it's mandatory to do more than cast Blizzard as BLM in order to contribute to the run.
Healers do not get a pass on laziness/badness. -
10-30-2016, 07:54 AMNormalizerHow about those dmg buffs, oGCD, cross skill that do not increase enmity but only provide extra DPS then? Fight or Flight, Spirit Within, Goring Blade, Royal Authority, Blood Bath, Mercy Stroke, and Sword Oath on PLD. I guess if you do not touch those skills you can still tank and can hold aggro even better (all what left are skills which generate enmity) but then the dps between a PLD who uses those and who don't will be much different right? And I expect the same for WAR and DRK, just don't know much about them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alisa180
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10-30-2016, 10:50 AMAlisa180A note, any kind of DPS increases enmity, which is part of why WAR is overpowered. Their skills both increase emnnity AND deal a significant chunk of damage, which is essentially a double dose of threat generation. A solution I've seen for helping PLD's AoE threat is letting Flash deal even a small amount of damage, which would deliver a similiar double-dose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Normalizer
The point being, Fight or Flight, Spirits Within, and Circle of Scorn are all essential parts of a PLD's threat-generation toolkit, since they are off-oGCD. Fight or Flight is critical for helping one get a good threat lead, and at lower levels is practically mandatory in order to keep up with the threat created by the DPS. (Goddamn Archers...). Circle of Scorn is essential for AoE situations, since it deals damage. Flashx2/3+Circle of Scorn is the usual threat opener when pulling mobs in EX dungeons (accompanied by popping FoF and Rampart if they are off-CD, or if its the pull right before the boss.)
Bloodbath is a tank CD. Its useful for easing a little of the pressure on the healers.
Hm, I don't have Mercy Stroke, as I only leveled MRD so far as to gain Foresight and Bloodbath. So, I guess that's interesting to have, but certainly not absolutely necessary.
How much the MT can potentially DPS is inversely proportional to how well the DPS are doing. If the DPS are even halfway competent, a PLD tank, at least, simply cannot spare the GCD to use either Goring Blade or Royal Authority. I once encountered a MNK who did raid-worthy damage while running Antitower, and hoo boy, that was an adventure to keep threat. It was fun, though! If the DPS are doing less well, I can potentially spare a GCD to fit in Royal Authority, but I wouldn't consider that a good thing... And again, its not truly necessary.
Unless you are the off-tank (and even then, there are multiple exceptions), you are expected to be in Shield Oath the whole time. Certainly, a player can potentially switch into Sword Oath to increase DPS while MTing, but this usually requires an exceptional level of finesse to be sure the DPS or healers won't rip off you. Or exceptionally poor DPS. This can all too easily lead to disaster if a DPS rips off you while you're in Sword Oath, since it will take 2-3 GCDs to take back and re-establish threat (one to switch back into Shield Oath, an oGCD for Provoke, and however much of your threat combo you can pull off. God help you if its an AoE situation.) And as stated above, ideally one cannot even spare a GCD for Royal Authority, much less the 4-5 for DPSing in Sword Oath.
That kind of play is very rarely expected of the MT, even in progression raid situations (Gordias and World First aside). So long as we hold threat, use CDs properly, and handle mechanics and tank swaps, we're considered to be doing fine, even well. At least from my experience. -
10-30-2016, 12:11 PMThunda_Cat_SMASHI've always hated that skill. It's so weak for what it does that I wish there were more choices for cross classes. A 200 potency attack every 90 seconds that's only usable on a near dead enemy is so negligible it's hardly noteworthy. I get more mileage out if it trying to last hit mobs for the self heal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Normalizer
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10-30-2016, 12:39 PMCynfaelYour original point is hinged on the fact that tanks technically can't fill their role without dealing some damage. It doesn't address the fact that DPS is a party-shared obligation or answer the question of why healers should be considered exempt from the expectation to contribute simply because theirs is the only role out of the three that doesn't specifically require dealing damage in order to carry out their primary function.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
This isn't the same as saying that every player who picks up the healer role must become a stance-dancing expert or be shamed publicly; however, since these debates began, I have yet to have anyone convincingly explain just what a healer is expected to do when they don't need to heal or buff if it isn't to pitch in with some supporting DPS. There is no good healer out there who doesn't experience legitimate healing downtime on a regular basis even if they aren't proactively planning and preparing for it. -
10-30-2016, 03:47 PMAlisa180I thought DPS was the obligation of, well, the DPS. It's been stated by the devs that when calculating DPS checks, they 1) Do NOT take healer DPS into account, and 2) only use the absolute bare minimum of tank DPS (how much they need to do to hold threat in tank stance.) In other words, the game is not designed with others 'going beyond their role' in mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynfael
Let me put this way: A combination of lag, sticky CS, and somewhat poor reflexes are all reasons why I could not learn to stance dance. Put those things together, and, well...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynfael
I also use a controller, and could never quite figure out how to switch between a DPS and healer skill set smoothly mid-battle. I tried using crossbar-switch macros and switching manually, both with mixed results leaning towards negative. Not to mention actually targeting the enemy, then switching back to heal someone. Macros in this game often aren't as reliable as they should be, resulting in incidents involving <tt> macros.
For me, taking advantage of 'downtime' to DPS simply is not worth the mess that often results when said downtime ends. And when I do pull it off on occasion, my DPS is usually pitiful (Putting down Aero, maybe one or two Stone IIIs) before I have to heal again. Again, for me, it's not worth risking failing my primary duty (healing) for maybe squeezing in a few cents worth of DPS.
Do I have downtime? Yes. But downtime always ends. I would rather be ready for the moment damage goes out again, rather then risking *not* being ready and triggering a wipe, for the sake of a few small numbers. -
10-30-2016, 05:19 PMDaulBan
I think a fair stance on the CS debate itself, is that you shouldn't be calling for this or that on CS if you don't actually use it.
The debate around CS and Tanking is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. There are some nuanced conversations on the use of both, and they are often compared and contrasted with each other in order though I think the risk and rewards associated with CS and dropping tank stance are pretty skewed. CS at the bad time seriously damages your ability to heal due to the inherent nature of the way the 5s of basically 0 healing works. If Clerics was 'damage is calculated off your mind stat, healing is 20% less effective' then we could have a more reasonable comparison, but as it is isn't, that path is a brick wall, arguing about it doesn't matter.
That aside, clerics vs no clerics is a case by case question that should be asked by people who are willing to use it in the first place.
No offense to the healing purists but every time I see a thread complaining about the fact that healers have dps options at all it makes me wince. If you don't throw out Stone III during a fight because you don't want to, you have literally no stake in the fate of the DPS abilities of the class, and hence no business whatsoever in the mechanics which allow them to do damage. If you call for the end of CS because you only wanna heal then suck it up and take the skill off your hotbar and explain to the people around you why you think you shouldn't be able to DPS. You have to make that argument to those around you or let the situation speak for itself, don't come to a forum and winge about the fact CS is an unfair burden.
And if you're that starved for hard healing content go out and do savage and try to heal. -
10-30-2016, 05:27 PMRawrzIts 5 seconds, not 10.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaulBan
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10-30-2016, 11:20 PMCynfaelThat dev statement was specific to the context of calculating minimum DPS required to clear raids like Coil and Alexander and doesn't conflict with my statement that DPS is a party-wide obligation. It wasn't a larger commentary on dev vision for the whole state of the game, even though it has been conveniently interpreted as such from time to time. Besides, do we really want to aspire to meet bare minimums?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alisa180
If your party fails to do enough damage, the duty is lost. All roles have the capability to do damage, and 2 of 3 have damage-dealing wrapped directly into their primary functions. Do we accept that the healer role is a special snowflake that gets away with ignoring their DPS toolbox in group content regardless of whether or not it makes sense to use it in any given situation? I don't believe so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alisa180
I can understand that there may be technical issues that discourage you and some other players from using Cleric Stance in the course of normal play. This discussion isn't intended to be a referendum on any one player. I will say, though, that reflexes matter minimally when it comes to proper use of CS since you use it by observing (and remembering) the flow of the fight and knowing when you can squeeze in your DPS spells without risk. That DPS may seem minimal to you, but over the course of a duty it can really add up. In some cases it can also be of great help in quickly clearing or even bypassing a specific, annoying mechanic.
Generally, unless we're talking about certain raid content, it's not necessary to be constantly ready for the next bit of incoming damage. Once you've done a particular dungeon, trial, or whatever, you know what's coming; the only surprise is if your party members play really badly, and even then you at least know what could happen in the worst case scenario.