Gerun Oracles

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Theoretically, if we cast down the Ascians, prevent His resurrection, and stop rocking the damn boat, the Seventh Astral Era can last for all time with the reins of history in the hands of man. (Until a subsequent expansion.)

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I'm actually not in support of this notion. For one thing, rocking the boat is human nature, for another, far to much of Final Fantasy as a series has taken pains to insist that there is no great evil that can be defeated to bring about eternal world peace. Nothing stopping that from happening here, sure, but somehow I don't think we're going to loop around into "we were right all along" because as myself and other have pointed out, we're wrong on a lot already.

I'd like to think there's a way to fix equilibrium without trashing our Mothercrystal (she does mean well), but beyond that I just can't see killing all the Ascians as a viable or even a worthy goal.

Im going to be honest, I don't really know where people are getting the sense that the Ascians aren't villains from. Regardless of their intentions they are responsible for carnage and suffering on a massive scale throughout history with no sign of regret or remorse even if necessary, and frankly seem to hold those who live on Hydaelyn with little regard and frankly sometimes a fair degree of contempt. That's ignoring the fact they are basically stealing the bodies of people to use has shells.

I'd also point out again that nothing in game or out of it except the Ascians themselves has pointed to Hydaelyn as being anything but benevolent.
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another thing to consider is that Elidibus and Lahabrea are "of this world" and compared to the rest of them (so far) they're pretty active in speaking to and recruiting mortals.

Lahabrea actively turns mortals into Asciens and Elidibus seems rather diplomatic and tries to convert the WoL, Minfillia and Urianger. He succeeds with the WoDs

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Im going to be honest, I don't really know where people are getting the sense that the Ascians aren't villains from. Regardless of their intentions they are responsible for carnage and suffering on a massive scale throughout history with no sign of regret or remorse even if necessary, and frankly seem to hold those who live on Hydaelyn with little regard and frankly sometimes a fair degree of contempt. That's ignoring the fact they are basically stealing the bodies of people to use has shells.

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I'm not saying they aren't antagonists, at least for the moment. I'm not saying their methods don't need work (a fact Eldibus has shown he understands). I am saying that the "root of all evil" label we've slapped on them is fairly naive, and not really true to the spirit of the series. "Oh, just beat all twelve fourteen of these totally inhuman overlords and everything will be peace, love, and rainbows? Sign me up!" It's... too simple?

And yes, I bring this up a lot, but we had precisely one character describe, in detail, how the sole purpose his entire existence was to surrender himself as a vessel for an ancient Allagan will (and an unbroken line of ancestors all groomed from birth for the same purpose for 5000 years), and never batted an eyelash because it was for the "light of hope." Not to mention Koh Rabntah, who may never regain control of her life, but it's okay because she gives us upgrades and tells us how wonderful we are. It's cool if we do it, because we're working for the "greater good," but if Ascians do it for the benefit of their world, their beliefs, it's evil? Just like that?

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Originally Posted by Fenral

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Exactly this. It's not that I think Lahabrea is going to be my best friend (though he totally is in my heart) and everything is going to be sunshine and rainbows, it's just that, even as far back as FFIII - you could even argue it in FFI, since awareness of being stuck in a perpetual time loop would probably mess me up rather badly as well - darkness wasn't evil for evil's sake. There's no reason to expect the Ascians to be. Everything that is there has hinted that there's more to the story we don't know, SE releasing only the tiniest carrot every patch so they keep people like us interested and talking.

Oh I don't think the Ascians are necessarily the root of all evil and just killing them will solve everything. I suspect that the issue they are seeking to address is infact perfectly valid. I just don't see the Ascians as being anything but antagonists. They lean towards being both uncaringly destructive and cruel and zealots. Again, there really is nothing in game to paint them in a positive light. I don't think they are wrong there is a problem but I also don't think their solution is one that will be ok with us. Its like the Garleans. Dropping a planetoid on Eorzea might have stopped beast tribes summoning primals but it wouldn't have made the method ok.

There is also a difference between being possessed and used as a host and inheriting a legacy like with the Crystal Tower. We see though out the cutscenes a search for purpose and a desire to help in the character. The end of the CT for me was him making a choice for the sake of Eorzea, not him being mind controlled. As for Koh Rabntah, Noah states himself that he intends to bail and give her back her body in the quest text when you first speak to him/her.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I almost wonder if the Ascians are essentially Voidsent...

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I was under the impression that this was what our first impression was meant to be. Travanchet manifested a voidgate to steal the Key. The colors of their clothes and magicks are related to the void, their associations with darkness are related to the void, they move through voidgates. They possess people, they chant an Ancient language and raise voidsent from the "mournful voice of creation". They even spoke of how the gate is already wide open and that void would "win". It didn't start to seem like they were originally more than lords of the void until Zodiark and the revelation that they were fleeing to a space between the worlds (the interdimensional rift); that perhaps they became associated with void from somethng... "before".

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I kind of wonder what would have happened were he allowed to continue his rampage... Just drawing close to the planet was already corrupting aetherytes and unleashing Voidsent, his brief rampage created a lot of corrupt crystals, though I don't recall any Voidsent around them... If correct, would this technically change the Calamity? Bahamut wasn't the Calamity, in the same sense the War of the Magi wasn't the Calamity, it was just the cause. That would, of course, make Louisoix the Calamity...

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In out-of-world discussions, Louisoix is referred to as half-preventing the Calamity, so I'd feel kinda weird dropping the blame on him. The finger has generally been pointed at Bahamut's insatiable hunger. He was placed into Dalamud because of the massive amount of energy he could act as a transistor for; what he took from the sun and transferred to the planet was more than even the Crystal Tower could provide.

Hydaelyn was already weakened by the events surrounding the events of 1562 (fall of the keeper, arrival of the primals) and it seemed like the original plan was for all of this to come to a head with the Empire. Instead, Nael van Darnus measured and disrupted the aetheric rivers of Eorzea, channeling the energy to Dalamud. As it drew closer to the planet, the aetheric draw was so much that it drained crystals of their aspect right out of the ground. Even the dissolving mist of defeated primals rose to the sky. The repeated summoning of primals served to take more energy from Hydaelyn and send it to Dalamud. Dalamud then punctured and warped the very rivers themselves, leading to the corrupted crystal protrusions.

Meanwhile, the instability in the "membrane" between the corporeal world and the void caused a "wobbling" of the two. Where they overlapped, Atomos slipped through from the void and began to basically treat the aetheryte camps as big straws, sucking aether out of the networks, overcharging the crystals, and allowing voidsent to flood through. As far as I can tell, the mass-appearance of voidsent was a side-effect, this time.

Personally, I still see this positive feedback loop as the primary cause of the Calamity, with Louisoix's actions being a desperate intervention.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

far to much of Final Fantasy as a series has taken pains to insist that there is no great evil that can be defeated to bring about eternal world peace.

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Eternal world peace, no. But isn't every Final Fantasy about putting an end to a cycle and/or force that denies mankind control of its own destiny? There are several ways the Ascians could end up being seen as becoming or harnessing antagonistic / evil powers rather than just being cartoon villains. If they truly believe that the original order or Zodiark's control of Creation was how things were better off, they have every reason to treat us like they do without necessarily being seen as evil as much as (gods help us) wrong. And, as an advocate and mediator of Zodiark with our world, Elidubus would be expected take a far less "who cares how much suffering we cause" approach.

I - XIV

FFI: Chaos' time loop
FFII: Emperor's relationship with Hell
FFIII: Xande's mortality and manipulation by the Cloud of Darkness
FFIV: Lunarians' stalled integration/invasion
FFV: Moore Tree's corruption its division of the world
FFVI: Repercussions of the Warring Triad's existence
FFVII: Jenova's conquest / Shinra's exploitation of the planet
FFVIII: Ultimecia's manipulation of time
FFIX: Terra's infection of Gaia
FFX: Sin
FFXI: Lasting effects of the Zilart and Promathia
FFXII: The Occuria
FFXIII: The death of the universe
FFXIV: Cycle of the Eras / Ascians

Note that in all of these, there also was some force that we would perceive as evil, usually associated with void. Whether or not we have to keep wiping Ascians out is up for grabs, but so long as they see us as inevitably marching towards our own extinction, I'm not gonna feel too bad about it.

There's... grey area when a journey of self-discovery ends with unlocking inherited memories followed immediately by a dramatic, irreversible self-sacrifice (especially after he was that down on himself for being useless). It's OK I guess that you don't see it that way, but if you do (and I'm not "incorrect" on this; it's in the text), it's kind of disgusting and unforgivable. There was also grey area with the tower itself that I don't need to get into. Again, it's right there in the text. I apologize for bringing it up again.

Point is: there's a lot of moral grey area written into the setting and conflict that tends to just get ignored entirely when it's time to wrap things up. Just kinda makes me wonder why it's there in the first place if the writers really want to handle everything as black-and-white.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Eternal world peace, no. But isn't every Final Fantasy about putting an end to a cycle and/or force that denies mankind control of its own destiny?

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Coin toss if that power is Zodiark or Hydaelyn. For me, I think what separates the Ascians from the Occuria is that the primary antagonist of XII is a human acting of his own free will and backed by an Occuria that has gone rogue. The Occuria themselves are too big to ever be dealt with.

Granted, that rogue element could very well be Lahabrea, but so long as seemingly all the major problems in the world end up traced back to Ascian instigation, it kind of sends the message that the evils plaguing humanity are external, even without meaning to.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

It didn't start to seem like they were originally more than lords of the void until Zodiark and the revelation that they were fleeing to a space between the worlds (the interdimensional rift); that perhaps they became associated with void from somethng... "before".

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I'm somewhat reluctant to associate The Void with The Interdimensional Rift. Crystal Tower makes it seem more likely that it is The World of Darkness, which if I'm remembering my Dissidea correctly, ExDeath considered separate (and inferior) to The Void... Add to that how prominent The Void has been in this game, granted it isn't Main Scenario material, but it's still very much something that comes up time and time again, while The Interdimensional Rift has always been "endgame" material, if that.

I'll be honest though, the idea mostly came about because my OCD will not allow Belias/Zodiark to be "Primals", while Cuchulainn is a Voidsent... That is not how references work, either they're all Primals or they're all Voidsent dammit! Belias (and Zodiark) being something like a Void Primal seems to work quite nicely as far as that goes, with Tristan "learning" Belias-Egi through the Ascians and effectively giving us a corrupted Ifrit-Egi (purple colour scheme screems Void to me, I'm sure it was just the devs cutting corners and being unable to reskin Ifrit-Egi red though). Ultimately it would make for a nice mirror to Hydaelyn, with the twelve Ivalice Espers potentially being The World of Darkness versions of the Twelve, also building on the Ascians naming/sigils somewhat. I imagine there would be more fanfare over us slaying Cuchulainn were that the case though, granted his Ascian counterpart is already gone...

I do still find it odd though, that from all the Eras we know, we had problems (Civil unrest, War of the Magi, Garleans), followed by a Void problem (Cloud of Darkness, Mhach, Atomos), followed by a Calamity... The Ascians coming through The Void from their world, or their world being consumed by The Void already are certainly other possibilities, with it cropping up around Calamities just being a side effect of whatever "much chaos, such disaster, wow" is meant to achieve, but then Nabriales makes it seem like The Void is very much a part of their plans. He stole Tupsimati and was very keen on starting the next Rejoining, then he goes on about having The Void devour all light... Likely just a good source of chaos, but if their world is/was separate from The Void, wouldn't that make it a common threat? Wouldn't their world be (or have been) equally at risk of Voidsent? If you have two worlds, with The Void in the middle, and you burn out one, wouldn't the other bare the full brunt of the Voidsent from then on? The only sense I can make there is that we have a reverse Final Fantasy V going on; Rather than a planet being split to seal The Void, we have a planet being split allowing The Void through... Though even then, if The Void is meant to be some common enemy, which could put us in agreement with Elidibus... Nope, can't make sense of that... They make far too much use of the Void for it to be a problem for them...

No, I think I'm going to go back to my original hypothesis on "not of this world"; There is no other world, the Ascians are very much of this world. They've got a Planet of the Apes thing going on, and we're the Apes. Would fit nicely with Lahabreas comment that the laws of existence are being warped beyond all recognition. They're not of this world because the laws of existence have been warped such that the world is now alien to them. That warping is what prevents them easy access, Lahabrea and Elidibus are "new" so they're "of this world" in the sense that it is more familiar to them, but if allowed to worsen they'd be in the same boat as Nabriales et al.

Granted, Final Fantasy doesn't shy away from just pulling another world out of no where, I'd rather it didn't though.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Granted, that rogue element could very well be Lahabrea, but so long as seemingly all the major problems in the world end up traced back to Ascian instigation, it kind of sends the message that the evils plaguing humanity are external, even without meaning to.

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Well, we have a few evils which (so far) aren't traced back to Ascians... Ilberd seems to have no involvement with them, and it's unknown whether Thordan I did. Heck, something like the civil descent of Allag would almost have to be mans fault, rather than Ascians. Ascians perhaps just pushed them in that direction...

Ascians tend to favour enabling man to carry out its own evils and working through proxies. Remember in Haukke Manor they pretty much say they just showed Amandine the way. She was the one who chose to walk that path. The Ascians rarely seem to directly intercede, rather they work usually through proxy.

For this reason I think its highly likely both the Fall of Allag and the War of the Magi are things they had hands in. They didn't necessarily cause the events directly. They just nurtured the seeds that lead to it. Apart from opposing us, I don't think we have one example of the Ascians directly causing conflict. Rather they simply set it up, enable those who's desires fit the direction they want things to go and let human nature play out.