I feel that mixing up role and identity.Quote:
Originally Posted by mp-please
Shaman from WoW is a decent example. If you were to describe its identity how would you do so ? You certainly would not say "raid healer" would you ? That just its role as a healer. All it skills and ability were incredibly unique and fit into the theme of Shaman. They were this really cool supportive healer with neat chain heal mechanics and creative and neat ways to heal main tank.
WHM role certainly is a aoe healer but when you start asking what is its identity ? What theme are all its skills based around you sort of end up with nothing and just end up repeating itself [It gots gud heals]. Here the thing having good heals is not a identity, on the opposite its a requirement for all healers. To preserve that pseudo-identity you would have to do what you wished against and water down ever other healer. Which is exactly what SE tried to do with AST. They made heals weak because it crossed over WHM's [I heal gud] identity.
WHM is in middle of a identity crisis with nothing to call it own with little to no theme. Unfortunately its not something a patch can fix. Most likely it be this way until 4.0
Why does White Mage feel so bland?
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09-10-2015, 04:33 AMLiselsia
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09-10-2015, 06:29 AMGist
When will we get Reraise? Dia? How about Full-Life?
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09-10-2015, 06:53 AMNinimo_Babamo
Ok, so I found the problem. You haven't leveled the other healers to 60, so you can't accurately determine the difference in the three healers for end-game content. So, allow me to explain.
White Mage: AoE King in both heals and DPS. Highest possible heal output.
Scholar: Tank heal and mitigation. Highest possible DPS output.
Astrologian: Decent in AoE heals and AoE mitigation. Most party utility.
It seems to me, that as long as there remains three healers, we all have a separate identity. -
09-10-2015, 07:02 AMFevelleWHM and AST Diurnal play exactly alike. Cure/Bene Procs, heal potency CD, regen, party regen etc... Does it feel a little differente because of cards and some effects? Yes. Is it enough to call it a completely different experience like SCH is? No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninimo_Babamo
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09-10-2015, 07:09 AMFevelleHaste, Reraise, Dia, Renew, Arise, Blink, Shell, Cure 4, Reflect, Dispel, Wall, Float, Bravery... All these spells can be added to the game, but SQEX seems focused in Stone and Aero most (really, couldn't Tetragramatton be called Renew? ARGH).Quote:
Originally Posted by Gist
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09-10-2015, 07:30 AMNinimo_BabamoStop ignoring the staple of their AoE heals. Cure 3 and Assize can't simply be ignored. A good White Mage will know how to use Cure 3 and make it feel very different from AST Diurnal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fevelle
The same argument you make could also be made of AST Nocturnal and SCH. They play almost the exact same.
It's the little differences in spells that are different that make the classes feel so unique. -
09-10-2015, 07:53 AMFevelleYes, because 2 skills surely make the class gameplay completely different. It doesn't really matter if a "good WHM" knows how to use 2 spells, what we are discussing here is gameplay. The way someone heals with a Diurnal AST is the same someone heals with a WHM. The differences in skills are so basic that it doesn't count (and let's be honest, Cure III is just potency AOE, it doesn't add ANYTHING other than that).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninimo_Babamo
YES. That's the point. AST is so bad designed that it became a watered down version of its "counterparts".Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninimo_Babamo
"Little differences" doesn't make anything unique. If SQEX failed in creating a third healer job, I fear what will come out when the fourth healer class is created.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninimo_Babamo
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09-10-2015, 09:38 AMlirovaldoThis. Square Enix clearly ran out of resources/creativity during development. The new jobs bring nothing different in terms gameplay, and most of the old ones were homogenized and lost good part of their identity. If this is what the future holds, i am afraid this game will not last long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fevelle
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09-10-2015, 10:01 AMMuahbecNo drama please.Quote:
Originally Posted by lirovaldo
Yes it is an issue, but SE saved this game once, i'm pretty sure they will do what's right if everything starts going downhill again.
AND this is just the first expansion, we have a long long LONG road ahead... -
09-10-2015, 11:22 AMRewind
AST isn't WHM. WHM isn't AST. They both play differently. Copy and paste from the other 52 page thread on the 'WHM identity crisis'
I agree their foundation spells (direct heal) are relatively the same, and that's okay. It makes the classes easy to approach for a beginner. I think tanks are very much in the same position as healers in this regard (and maybe BRD/MCH though I haven't played much MCH to know if this is 100% true)
It's when you start managing CDs, stance dancing and micromanaging other players (through cards) and yourself (being very strategic with timing of cards and buffing cards/your own abilities) that take the classes to another level.
So yes, at a very basic play-style all three healers are the same. As soon as you take it to an intermediate or advanced level they all play very differently.
Do we need to complicate the beginner level by adding gimmicky spells? I personally don't think so. I think it is up to the individual to take the job to a new level and push their limits in game-play.
AST plays very differently to WHM even though they have similar spells. AST plays very differently from SCH even though they have similar spells.
AST has it's advantages - it is a bit more mobile than the other two, it can offer support to other classes, it's light to play and very face paced.
AST also has it's disadvantages - it can lose control quite quickly especially when you've already used synastry & lightspeed for another mechanic, support is very rng and not consistent enough to replace a brd/mch in raid, cards won't compensate for stupid play no matter how your rng is, has less healing utility than WHM/SCH, and very little DPS utility. WHM has the best healing utility. None of the other classes match it.
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Personally I believe that AST has a higher skill cap because a) it's less forgiving to mistakes and b) the cards are a very big distraction for minimal benefit. Therefore not a lot of people will play it well enough to constitute bringing a WHM over AST for progression.