Easiest DPS to play for the lazy?

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Originally Posted by Tenkiei

How is the modeling of bard gear coming again?

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I don't bother with that. When I eventually get a Bard to 50 I will. Feel free to take the stat weights and develop your own BIS list though.

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Or are you still suggesting the model which incorrectly suggests it's alright to drop crit/det for acc/ss?

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It's all right to drop crit/det for more value of acc/ss as long as you don't hit minimum animation thresholds and aren't hitting TP starvation for most of the encounter.

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Also, out of curiosity, if it has 8 lines to model, how did you account for stacking buffs on barrage,

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Barrage is incorporated in the stat weight analysis section as a *1.3 factor to replicate the 10/180 uptime = 1.11111 average damage mod amplified by simultaneous cooldown usage (BFB, IR, Hawkeye, RS)

Sidenote: after doing some quick detailed math I think I should have used *1.25 instead of *1.3. I'll change that for future updates.

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refreshing DoTs with buff times (think 330-70 vs 162).

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Don't clip your DOTs. It's a DPS loss. Man am I good at playing a class I don't play.

Sidenote: skill speed can improve DOT uptime.

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Also if you say that bard has no conditional damage then your model is incorrect, last I checked Repelling shot required you to be within nearly melee range, whereas USING repelling shot throws you out of that range meaning you have to move up again to use it.

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Lol. Considering I didn't have to adjust formulas in the Bard model for "if the attack is True Strike, it gets a random 5% bonus chance to crit just because" and then another adjustment for "what fraction of Bootshines do you fail to autocrit", I think my statement is valid.

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In many ways Bard, and Summoner are somewhat similar because cooldown management, and DoTing are so important,

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1. Bards don't manage cooldowns. You press your cooldown button.

2. Luckily, all the Bard buffs and DOTs are on virtually the same cooldown.

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for example did you put in a conditionality clause for DoTing 3 targets to allow for multi-dot/focus versus AoE?

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Of course not. It's a single target DPS model.

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The fact of the matter is bard dps is fairly complicated if you want to excel.

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No, not really. As pertains to multi-target DoTing, I assure you it's more complicated on a Monk or Dragoon, although a SMN probably gives you a run for your money re: simplicity of tab-DOT.

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lets look at black mage single tar for a second... [...] use Fire III on proc, [...] use Thunder III on proc.

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The interesting part of a BLM is that they have to alter their attack sequence to use their procs since they are on the GCD. As a result they actually have to pay mental attention, unlike a Bard. To top it off, they actually have to pay attention to their positioning, and do a risk/reward assessment for blowing a Firestarter proc early, or holding it for a moment to use while moving for a mechanic.

For a general DPS scenario, Bards just keep pressing buttons unless they have to silence High Voltage.

That said, BLMs do compete with Bards in general for "easiest DPS to execute", although the whole positioning thing gives them a notable edge.

due to the game mechanics and the way the battle system of this game is, there's no "easy" class/job you can play without moving and dodging incoming attacks.
there's no right or wrong answer for this.

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Originally Posted by Tenkiei

Also if you say that bard has no conditional damage then your model is incorrect, last I checked Repelling shot required you to be within nearly melee range, whereas USING repelling shot throws you out of that range meaning you have to move up again to use it.

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Bard has complete mobility at all times. In no way is repelling shot conditional from a modelling standpoint. You can always be at melee range if you want to be, and always be at max range if you want to be. The affect on DPS from movement is 0.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Don't clip your DOTs. It's a DPS loss. Man am I good at playing a class I don't play.

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So what you're saying is that it's always a DPS loss, even if you only clip one tick in order to reset Dot durations while IR is still up?
One tick vs ~15s of an additional 20% chance to proc Bloodletter...
Happen to have some math to back that up?

I understand what you're saying. Priority lists are easier to model than combo requirements.
But in this specific case, you have to press nearly twice as many buttons in the same amount of time (because of the slew of OGCD abilities) and keep up with a silence rotation.
Is that REALLY easier to execute?
Especially for someone who admits they want to play "lazily"...

I would think pressing fewer buttons, making fewer decisions, and having less responsibility with group mechanics would be better suited for the lazy.

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So what you're saying is that it's always a DPS loss, even if you only clip one tick in order to reset Dot durations while IR is still up?

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Nope, not "always". You should check the other Bard thread where I actually did an in-depth assessment of recasting VB/WB early as pertains to the order in which you should use the Bard buffs.

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I understand what you're saying. Priority lists are easier to model than combo requirements.
But in this specific case, you have to press nearly twice as many buttons in the same amount of time (because of the slew of OGCD abilities) and keep up with a silence rotation.

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Well, it's not just combo requirements. That aside, pressing OGCDs is necessary for DRGs and MNKs as well and they are significantly more sensitive than the Bard OGCDs. SMNs get to manage their pets. BLMs, as stated more than once, can vaguely match BRD simplicity, but the mana management and movement demands are more straining than tapping the OGCD.

The only real claim to attention for Bards is being on a silence rotation, which is pretty fight-specific and doesn't result in a real DPS loss the way BLMs more or less auto-lose 20% DPS on Titan.

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Is that REALLY easier to execute?

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Depends: if you are sane and put all (sans Blunt/Repel/FA) your OGCDs on one macro ... shrug, just tap it once every GCD.

If you try to pretend to be cool like some of these guys, you run around your keyboard chasing OGCDs -- but that's self-inflicted complexity more than anything

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having less responsibility with group mechanics would be better suited for the lazy.

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I'd say this is the only legit factor for saying anyone (or rather, a BLM in particular, but maybe a SMN) has an easier time than a Bard. Although I don't think it's valid for Coil, because anyone who's doing Coil isn't playing hyper-casual-I-want-to-be-super-lazy, Bards still get stuck on silence for ... Chimera. Mmmk.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Although I don't think it's valid for Coil, because anyone who's doing Coil isn't playing hyper-casual-I-want-to-be-super-lazy

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Well I'm just working directly off the OP's post:

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Shieldmaiden

So I've played MMOs since UO. Raided in EQ, WoW, AO, blah blah blah. ... ... I don't care about being a world first raider. I just want to be able to play semi-drunk and not have to rage if I miss a beat by 3/4 of a second.

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Sounds to me like he expects to raid, just not seriously.
And if he does get into coil; IMHO, silence rotations alone pretty much rule out bard for "not have to rage if I miss a beat by 3/4 of a second".



Just trying to stay on topic. <3

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Don't clip your DOTs. It's a DPS loss. Man am I good at playing a class I don't play.

Sidenote: skill speed can improve DOT uptime.

2. Luckily, all the Bard buffs and DOTs are on virtually the same cooldown.

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Don't Clip your DoTs?
So I have +20% damage +20% damage +15% damage +20% crit for 4s, I'm supposed to use that on 2 Heavy Shots (162 est potency) versus DoTs with 330/310 est potency just to preserve 1-2 ticks of DoTs which did NOT have my full buffs when I applied them? thereby having to reapply DoTs with 0 buffs in around 6s? This makes so much sense to me. Even if we're not talking the first DoT refresh, if a buff has 3s remaining, is there ever a reason to NOT clip DoTs with 1 tick remaining so that you gain 5 additional ticks of damage at the buffed value? This is especially important with Internal Release because that is +10% Reset chance Per DoT for 5 ticks. Man you are so good at the class you don't play you don't even understand it properly.

Also am I the only person who can appreciate the irony of you saying to not clip DoTs, then about a line later saying "no not always"? Make up your mind.

Sidenote: Lets see some proof skillspeed improves DoT uptime when you are physically incapable of overwriting stronger DoTs with weaker ones, and because of the way your cooldowns stagger you are VERY often in the situation of a stronger DoT falling off ~2s before your next CD is up, therefore it's better to just wait and not reapply DoTs right away?

Virtually the same cooldown? what?
Raging Strikes 20s Uptime, 2 Minute cooldown (~16.667% uptime for +20% Damage)
Barrage 10s Uptime, 1.5 Minute cooldown (~11.11% uptime for +200% Auto-attack Damage)
Hawk's Eye 20s Uptime, 1.5 Minute cooldown (~22.22% uptime for +15% Dexterity)
Blood for Blood 20s Uptime, 80s Cooldown (25% uptime for +20% damage dealt +25% damage taken)
Internal Release 15s Uptime, 60s Cooldown (25% uptime for +20% Crit chance)

This means, assuming perfect CD use, IR will be up whenever raging strikes is, but only up 50% of the time Hawk's Eye/Barrage is, similarly for every 3 times one uses Raging strikes Barrage/Hawk's eye will only be up with them twice, Blood for Blood will only line up with Raging Strikes once every 2 uses. So when do all of your cooldowns line up again? Once every 12 minutes. Again this is assuming that animation lock doesn't push things back further throwing them out of alignment (which it does since you get 4s of animation lock off the pull, etc etc etc).

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Also since when does "spamming X until at 900 mana" count as managing mana? a blm doesn't have to manage mana, only smn/whm/maybe sch do that.

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Originally Posted by Tenkiei

Don't Clip your DoTs?
Man you are so good at the class you don't play you don't even understand it properly.

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Actually this was addressed in the other post above. As a side comment, you might be interested in the Bard thread re: sequence of buff usage for more detailed information.

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Also since when does "spamming X until at 900 mana" count as managing mana?

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Around the same time that managing your cooldowns counts as managing cooldowns.

I am a bard, please let me know which 5 buttons to use. Cause right now I have a rotation of 12-13 skills and yeah, shits too hard u know ? So let me know of the 5 skills u use, thanks.

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Originally Posted by LogicIsSound

I am a bard, please let me know which 5 buttons to use. Cause right now I have a rotation of 12-13 skills and yeah, shits too hard u know ? So let me know of the 5 skills u use, thanks.

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No prob. For your general DPS you need:

1. SS
2. WB
3. VB
4. HS
5. OGCD macro.

The only other button you press routinely is Flaming Arrow (once per minute). The rest are situational.