Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ixon

No one in the last few expansions from about SB forward, minus a handful of new people who end up on the front page of Tales from Duty finder, tells healers off for being a "filthy dps"

---

Had a Tank chastise me when playing SCH in E1N for not using Addlo/Succor and having the WHM do all the healing, while Seraph was out.

DNC/BLM get upset with me in P3N for not healing them when they're standing in Devouring Brand's cross path.

Legitimately carried 2 Tanks and myself thru 89 trial when I gave up rezzing the 4 DPS and cohealer off the floor multiple times with LB 3 and chain rezzing, DPS spamming "Rez me" endlessly despite having died to the exact same mechanic for the entire encounter. 1 Comms from dead co-healer whom turned out to be in my FC and apologized for their poor performance.

Those are my most recent within the last 2 years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ixon

Tell you what, go into PF and tell me how many "Healers aren't allowed to DPS" there are vs "Tanks Damage Down Strat". Cause I still see the later almost everyday. People here have twisted what should be a neutral discussion to address issues they have with a job or role into their own personal pity party. Someone tell me how this statement so many are choosing to support HELPS anyone? Legitimately. Who here realistically expects a dev to read this and go "It's ok lil baby, I'll make sure those big meanies won't hurt you and here is 100k gil for every dungeon and if the party doesn't apologize for you being a healer then they get kicked." Heaven forbid people like myself want meaningful discussions instead of boo hoos from someone who seemingly hasn't cleared the raid tier as a healer?

---

Are you ...quite ok?

I'm not looking to start arguments so you're wasting your time if you want one, but considering how over-the-top aggressive you're being I assume you're having a bad day or irl is being rough or something? Hope that gets better.

Tank damage down strat is ridiculous and I'm happy to support tanks in being treated better too. I'm not sure why you quoted me on comms, check my post just above. Also my static doesn't log our runs publically and I'll never claim to be an amazing player, but I have an Ultimate down and several tiers before. We're just here to share opinions, it's fine if you think I'm talking nonsense, it's how I personally feel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ixon

^This, is at best, an over exaggeration of a legitimate issue within FFXIV. No one, in the history of forever, has ever said healers get less coms. In fact, people will legitimately queue healer for the sake of getting more coms because more often than not, they are the standard person to give coms to. No one in the last few expansions from about SB forward, minus a handful of new people who end up on the front page of Tales from Duty finder, tells healers off for being a "filthy dps". In fact, go check Tales from Duty Finder right now, and the majority of topics involving healers are the opposite, wanting healers to DPS who choose not to.

---

I can only speak for myself, but I got comms far more regularly as a Tank than as a Healer. Though I suppose it really depends on whether you are running dungeons vs. trials.

My understanding has generally been that, absent any actual merit, Tanks and Healers comm each other, while DPS tend to comm each other but often give it to the Tank if the other DPS is terrible, or to the Healer if they were the one sucking and needed all the rezzing. Usually only abnormally stellar or abysmal performances change up this prioritization, or someone who has been particularly communicative and helpful in completing the run.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ixon

Y'all can tear this apart, I don't care. I have tried, over and over again, in earnest to steer the conversations towards actual discussions. I have provided breakdowns, my own thought, thoughts of others, and have on the rare occasion had decent discussion on how SE can make healers specifically more enjoyable. But this ^ type of stuff detracts, deters, and is generally unhelpful when it comes to legitimate discussion.

---

Which is why I try to have a civil discussion whenever I do quote you.

Fact is though, I am tired. We're all tired. We are literally treading the same problems and arguments over and over at this point. As you can see.

Any and all discussions on this issue have been brought up well before this page/post and can be seen already. Hells the FIRST POST of healer issues that can be found here:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5348029

Is all the devs really have to look at. Nothing else. There is no bashing. There is nothing more than clear issues plaguing all three healers and what each of the mains would like to see in regards to changes.

Give me an explanation as to why the dev team has not looked at it in depth and given us some of what is on that page?

The only answer I can come up with is that they straight up do not give a damn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ASkellington

The only answer I can come up with is that they straight up do not give a damn.

---

The best answer I can come up with is that they think they are somehow sparing healers party grief by making sure everyone knows their damage is negligible.

Which, look at where that slippery slope led. Negligible DPS in a DPS-focused game doesn't spare healers party grief...it spares parties the need to have healers at all.

Instead of making the game easier for healers it has made it harder. In that it is hard for them to even get invited to the table, let alone find something to do once they get there.

I think the disconnect in today's conversation here is the fixation on the comms themselves, rather than what they *represent*. A comm by itself is a meaningless +1 Facebook like that doesn't necessarily indicate whether you've done well, poorly, or otherwise. At the same time, giving a commendation to player A instead of player B usually indicates that, in some way, so long as your choice wasn't "closest name to my mouse cursor", you think A performed better than B.

The point the healer vets are making here isn't "boohoo I didn't get a commendation". It's "I notice that every time I go into a 24-man, commendations come flowing in if I play like a Sylphie, and they don't when I play with actual skill". Which is a clue that the wider community seems to believe that terrible Sylphie gameplay is "good" healing, and skillful healing is not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Semirhage

The point the healer vets are making here isn't "boohoo I didn't get a commendation". It's "I notice that every time I go into a 24-man, commendations come flowing in if I play like a Sylphie, and they don't when I play with actual skill". Which is a clue that the wider community seems to believe that terrible Sylphie gameplay is "good" healing, and skillful healing is not.

---

I don't think that is going to change much. Even if we completely revamped healers with the understanding that they are "combat medics," the fact is that most DPS are smooth-brains, and many likely think that healers would just play DPS if that was what they wanted to do. Which is horrible logic, if only because 1) some of use like to do things *other* than DPS or strictly healing and 2) the game is literally designed so that a quarter of us are *required* to have a healing role--"not every little girl gets to be what they want, the world cannot support that many ballerinas."

And yes, I am implying that Yoshi-P is probably stuck in that rut of thinking as well. But I don't think the casual DPS attitude of total healer-obliviousness is ever going to go away. That is asking too much of the population at large.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ASkellington

Give me an explanation as to why the dev team has not looked at it in depth and given us some of what is on that page?

The only answer I can come up with is that they straight up do not give a damn.

---

Yoshida's statements about healers have been a real-life version of that "guy putting on clown makeup" meme.

"The SCH is doing nothing but DPS and forcing the poor WHMs to heal." (Provably false if you spend five minutes looking at logs for any fight.)

"We couldn't really do anything with SCH." (Ignoring multiple threads offering suggestions on improving SCH, not to mention ignoring the possibility of just giving them back their damn DoTs.)

"If you want fun, engaging content as a healer, go play Ultimate." (Because it's apparently okay for an entire role to be boring to play in 95% of the game's content, and only the tank and DPS jobs are allowed to have fun.)

"Oh yeah, we kicked the healer out of our playtesting group for being too good." (Were you afraid they might discover the same problems also discovered by any healer with more brains than a bowl of lukewarm oatmeal? Or do you just sincerely believe that all healers, everywhere, are Epsilon-Minus Semi-Morons?)

What I said before has been proven true: all decisions about healing in this game are made from the POV of the healed, not the healer. As long as YoshiderP's BLM gets healed to full after every little boo-boo, he sees nothing wrong with the role. Not only does the man clearly not understand how healers are played in his own game, he also clearly has no interest in the role whatsoever.

Referencing his famous GDC slide from eight years ago ("Running an MMO is like running a country"), while he might live in the same country (game) as his subjects (players), he sure as hell doesn't live in the same province as the healers. He's the guy in Idaho wondering why Chicagoans complain about crime being so high when his town is perfectly safe. And if he doesn't want to play healers in his own game, why the hell should we? I quit healing three years ago. The "Has anyone quit healing?" thread on the healer board has reached 109 pages. Skilled players are dropping the role because it's boring and the devs have made it very obvious they don't care. At some point, this is going to seriously hurt the game, just as Blizzard's overconfidence and arrogance hurt WoW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I don't think that is going to change much. Even if we completely revamped healers with the understanding that they are "combat medics," the fact is that most DPS are smooth-brains, and many likely think that healers would just play DPS if that was what they wanted to do. Which is horrible logic, if only because 1) some of use like to do things *other* than DPS or strictly healing and 2) the game is literally designed so that a quarter of us are *required* to have a healing role--"not every little girl gets to be what they want, the world cannot support that many ballerinas."

And yes, I am implying that Yoshi-P is probably stuck in that rut of thinking as well. But I don't think the casual DPS attitude of total healer-obliviousness is ever going to go away. That is asking too much of the population at large.

---

It's not going to change; that's been the community's view for a long time. It's also an important, revealing piece of information: if you think about the healing role from the perspective of someone who holds that ignorant, smooth-brained attitude toward healers, pretty much every single design choice Square Enix makes with respect to the role falls into place.

It's why I was explaining that pointing to the commendations and going "hurrrr, why are you complaining about not getting commendations" is a mischaracterization of the argument, because it's not about comms. It's about the community's ignorant attitude toward how skilled healers play. Ixon seems to want all of us to agree that healers aren't going to change, that it's not that bad, that we're all a bunch of dramatic whiners making half of it up.

We've been complaining about this since the last half of HEAVENSWARD. Maybe, just maybe, we know how healers work because we play them, and the people making decisions about them or incredulously snarking at our opinions on them don't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Punslinger

The "Has anyone quit healing?" thread on the healer board has reached 109 pages. Skilled players are dropping the role because it's boring and the devs have made it very obvious they don't care. At some point, this is going to seriously hurt the game, just as Blizzard's overconfidence and arrogance hurt WoW.

---

This is exactly why they're expanding Trusts.