Yoshi P to Mr.Happy "Heal DPS is not mandatory and no expectation for Healer to DPS!"

I almost never take the time to post in the forums, but I feel something needs said. As a healer main - I DPS every opportunity I get. Do I feel I need to? No. I enjoy helping my teammates. When it is people I know I get about 90% DPS uptime and no risk of death. With this said, anyone who has been in DF lately has probably noticed the healers who refuse to heal at all, staying in cleric while their party dies.

I would prefer a healer to heal over DPS - and yes I do play every class before it even gets brought up. Non-healing healers make me sad especially when there are a lot of DPS who refuse to do any mechanics whatsoever lately. It is very hard to DPS when half your party eats every mechanic in DS. Do what you can comfortably - but if you main a healer the priority is to heal. If your party is good, help them blow stuff up if you wanna - I will.

I'm sure the disagreement will ensue, but I've just accepted that as a given. We are all teammates in a party, we do what's best for our party - not ourselves. If people are taking damage I absolutely will stop dpsing. And this scenario is far more likely to happen. Sure I could PF, but I don't feel the need since I am very capable of healing the mistakes in DF.

In the end it is a comfort level with yourself and your party. I wish you all the best and I've tossed in my 2 gil and won't be responding further to this subject. Happy adventuring all.

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Originally Posted by AzazelCaine

I'm sure the disagreement will ensue, but I've just accepted that as a given. We are all teammates in a party, we do what's best for our party - not ourselves.

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THIS!!!!

If everybody would think like that, the Clashes between the Casual and the Core Community would have never existed or would be alot more minimal.

I wont callout healers for not dpsing when I DPS or tank, but I know for myself, I would be terribly, terribly bored if I dont try to dps when Im healing, there is just to much dead time for me. I would rather a healer stick to just healing if that's what they feel they can handle, than try to do both, and fail to keep the tank up.

That being said, I dont do savage content or ex primals that much, so my experiences arent on the cutting edge.

Jesus guys, let's use some common sense.

In a pug, DF or even PF situation it's ok if you wanna play healer that only heals, there is no problem if you are doing your job right. It may be "lazy" but if you have fun by pushing 3 bottoms during the entire duty, be my guest.

Although, in a Static/Guild situation, things are different, unless you are playing with friends for fun, there is no need to sit there doing nothing when nobody needs heals. You need to push your maximum on the job to help your static.

I always DPS with WHM and SCH on duty finder but I can't obligate people to do the same. Period.

The development team is doing a terrible job of pushing this mentality though. If they truly don't want healers to be DPSing, content should be designed to require more attentive healing AND healers should receive less DPS.

There is no reason why healers should have insane AOE if their DPS is designed for open world questing, single target would be fine.

If you heal in other games, say WoW, you need to really watch health. Players will go from 100% to 20% in the blink of an eye, and not just the tank. You need to be on your toes to heal/shield/debuff allies at a whim. Conversely, in FFXIV, the damage is so scripted, slow and light that you don't have to watch health at all. I have literally entered every dungeon post Fractals, on release, with my Scholar and let Eos solo heal it. I'll see a DPS stand in an AoE and think, hmm I have to heal them, but I have like 15 seconds until they will take any more damage, so Eos can take care of it.

Ultimately, outside of savage and extreme primals, the healing requirement here is a joke. THAT is the reason that Healer DPS is so pushed.

We need more intensive heals fights. Like A3s

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

All I have to say if this.....First, I have literally read almost every post on these pages over the past day and to see so many players disrespect one another based on differing opinions of playstyle is beyond me. You can call me a White Knight all you want.....but to see it come down to so many people insulting Yoshi P making statements that his opinion is worthless or that he does not have a &%$#ing clue how the game should be played is just beyond sad. Why can't you guys accept you have a right to play how and with whomever you want? If someone does not conform to your expected playstyle.....instead of insults or blatant disrespects like your a 1st grader....why don't you ask them kindly to DPS more if it is that big of a deal for you? And why can't you find others now that there is cross server party forming now that coincides with your playstyle?

Second, If you are healer that does not like to DPS....look at my original posting. I only stated that it was not mandatory and that people should not automatically force you to play especially in pug groups the way they want based solely on their opinion. But, this does not negate on what these other players are saying as a great portion of them have extremely valid points. If you are in a group and the people in your party respectfully ask you to DPS a little....what is the harm in trying? Does that mean if you are still new to the game that you may mess up and accidently kill the party...yes! But to be fair, you need to disclose to these players that you are still new at DPSing as a healer so they can understand that mistakes may happen....and they should not be angry if it does as you have clearly warned them ahead of time respectfully.

Lastly, can we just stop with the disrespects? I get it that this is a hot topic.....but can't we just get to the point of actual voicing your opinions on here and in game nicely to everyone to either explain that you are not good at DPSing as a healer and you may make mistakes to voicing to your healer that you would like them to DPS? Is that to wrong of a thought process to have? Guys have fun, please stop with the insults and lets try to be at least somewhat civil.....take care!

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Everyone thinks they're on 4chan or reddit. You know, sites that moderation is just slightly above absent, rudeness and belligerent behavior isn't punished, they're praised for sticking it to people they feel are beneath them.

The fact is, these forums are SE's property, and a certain level of decorum is expected and written in the ToS. There is nothing stopping anyone from going back through the thread and reporting every uncivil post as being SE/SE staff disrespect. Keep in mind that such flags typically flag the entire thread, not just the post. That's typically why you see threads do this deathspiral of maturity. If they act too soon to shut down a thread, people complain about being censored and then the amount of harassment increases inside and outside official channels.

Like that video I posted, 95% dislikes, oh yeah real mature guys. It's an unlisted video for a reason. I expected it.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Let's compare this...

It's your first time in the dungeon so okay I understand and I also don't bug healers in-game who don't DPS because I try my best to be understanding, but honestly after going through all the other content you have done don't you want to try to DPS a bit more? Or is it just beyond your skill level to handle?

I am asking you legit here. If you just cannot do it then fine... it's pointless to try to force a car or train to fly after all, but especially in dungeons honestly most people should have enough skill to toss on Cleric and use a few Holy and click it off. Especially with SB coming and no longer needing Cleric dancing at all.

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I find that the CS is an extreme hindrance, particularly in sub-50 content. Your cast time decreases over time, but peoples skill levels are not consistent from dungeon to dungeon. Like I did "The Aetherochemical Research Facility" earlier today. I was playing it and that's probably the most DPS I've been able to do in a level 60 dungeon, and that was with the tank primarily being in Sword-Oath the entire time, and pulling everything to one group. It's all situational.

I play SCH much differently, because yeah SCH feels like it has downtime if you don't DPS, and SCH is rarely in a pinch for mana. That is something that becomes painfully obvious on 8-man content.

But WHM's CS creates a problem where even triggering it wastes CD, so the best I get away with is CS-DoT-DoT-CS or CS-Holy/Aero III-CS otherwise the tank ends down around 30%. Again, it's situational. I had a run of Stone Vigil today, or maybe it was yesterday where everyone wiped 5 minutes into the dungeon. I'm always looking at what the Tank is doing in the party bar, and this tank started in Sword-Oath and then hit every single CD and then ran into the closest mobs. No Shield Oath, apparently he hadn't even done the level 40 Paladin quest for it. I don't tell tanks how to do their job, but one of the DPS's pointed it out to the Tank. So we just continued the dungeon and it took a good 45 minutes with wipes only on trash. This goes back to my statement in other comments about regen. Every single heal cast, ripped the enmity from the Tank. So I could only use regen during the bosses, and the tank died at the second and third boss (given probably a newbie at that content.) Like, it doesn't tick me off to play with a bad tank, it ticks me off that tank quality swings VERY wide, and what makes DPS viable on WHM is the tank losing HP slowly or not at all by using the right CD's.

Like I'm not sure if anyone noticed when they watched my video, I also cancel a cure casts by intentionally moving if I start casting something and then decide that Medica would be better. I only have two macros, one for "raise everyone" and one for "blow all the CD's - Medica II" which I only only use if the party is below 50%.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

He wouldn't do that, otherwise we would have another pre-nerf-Pharos Sirius-Steps-of-Faith situation, a bunch of people who don't know how to heal properly complaining about content being too hard for them. :B

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I'm pretty sure Yoshi-P wanted to do it (enforce class/job/roles,) but the actual dev team pushed back on it because it's too steep of a change to the mechanics and gives healers too little to do. From V1.0 to V2.0 we went from basically Turned-based with little movement, to a hybrid active-time battle based turn-based system. It's not an action RPG by any measure, that's why it's accessible to casual players. So Cleric Stance stayed because the CNJ/WHM storyline stayed. From V2.0 to V3.0 we got AST that could cross-class CNJ's skills, but not the reverse. So the V4.0 Role system is meant, in theory, to make sure everyone has access to the same tools required to pass content. I actually would not be surprised that if we keep having this "meta" argument from raiders, Yoshi-P might actually enforce roles on all 4-man content and make DPS weaker on Tanks and Healers in that content. Doing that with the raids might be untenable since raiders have said that they depend on DPS from all players to farm the raids.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

The development team is doing a terrible job of pushing this mentality though. If they truly don't want healers to be DPSing, content should be designed to require more attentive healing AND healers should receive less DPS.

There is no reason why healers should have insane AOE if their DPS is designed for open world questing, single target would be fine.

If you heal in other games, say WoW, you need to really watch health. Players will go from 100% to 20% in the blink of an eye, and not just the tank. You need to be on your toes to heal/shield/debuff allies at a whim. Conversely, in FFXIV, the damage is so scripted, slow and light that you don't have to watch health at all. I have literally entered every dungeon post Fractals, on release, with my Scholar and let Eos solo heal it. I'll see a DPS stand in an AoE and think, hmm I have to heal them, but I have like 15 seconds until they will take any more damage, so Eos can take care of it.

Ultimately, outside of savage and extreme primals, the healing requirement here is a joke. THAT is the reason that Healer DPS is so pushed.

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In other MMORPG's, usually everything is a deathblow if you're not overleveled and overgeared. FFXIV's difficulty scale is a little too generous. Like they could lock all content to ilevel sync within 2 levels of the dungeon ilevel and the challenge would still be there. But people don't want a challenge once they pass it once. They give you 90 minutes, but most content can be completed in under 20 minutes with a competent party that is overleveled and overgeared.

Other games have "easy/normal/medium/hard/very hard/extreme/etc" versions of the exact same dungeons but only differ by color palettes and and monster HP scale. These aren't terribly fun in my opinion because it's not "new" content, it's recycled content with no new mechanics, it's just "hard" by moving the goal posts for how long it would take to complete.

Like there are 4 ways this can be solved:
1. Break skills into overworld and dungeon skills, just like they are split between PvE and PvP. DPS skills for overworld are more powerful for healers, healing is more powerful for DPS on the overworld. During dungeons, only the basic DoT type of DPS skills be available for healers, and during dungeons self-heals only do a maximum of 10% to self.
2. Change Cooldowns so that non-role skills (eg DPS on Healers and Tanks, and Self-healing on DPS and tanks) are quadruple the cooldown time during all duties.
3. Change Cast times so that non-role skills have diminishing effects (think how Virus works) eg a Healers and Tanks who DPS, every subsequent cast time doubles until a GCD Heal/Tank action is used (which removes the debuff.)
4. Change all the dungeons so that healing requirements scale by ilevel.

From a purely practical point of view, none of these are simple. Using the "Virus" mechanic is probably the easiest solution without changing all the dungeons, where the player who casts something like Stone II-III gets the debuff (eg DPS that has no DoT,) but casting Assize or Holy does not because these have secondary effects that benefit the caster/player.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

If you heal in other games, say WoW, you need to really watch health. Players will go from 100% to 20% in the blink of an eye, and not just the tank.

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Which I personally don't find particularly good design either, since it makes healing excessively stressful, hence why I'd rather nerf healers than just up damage in content if I were to try and solve the issue with healing requirement adjustments.

The main difference between taking 1% health damage per second and being able to heal 1% health every second to taking 50% health damage per second and being able to heal 50% health every second is that the latter cannot be salvaged if you derp for one second, the prior can. Nerfing healing rather than increasing damage is a lot less punishing, even if it's not very popular.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

I always DPS with WHM and SCH on duty finder but I can't obligate people to do the same. Period.

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You totally can, actually. That is essentially the point of this thread; attempting to apply social pressure to the situation. The op was hoping that Yoshi P's statements would get them off the hook to dps and it turns out that will not be the case.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

You can call me a White Knight all you want.....but to see it come down to so many people insulting Yoshi P making statements that his opinion is worthless or that he does not have a &%$#ing clue how the game should be played is just beyond sad.

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The fact of the matter is that Yoshi-P is fallible. I don't think his opinion is worthless, but in this instance his statement is not reflective of the meta that players have created and is erroneous as a result. That is to say, Yoshi-P can say one thing, but the playerbase will decide what is or is not acceptable in a given setting.

I think Yoshi-P is a lovely person, but we can still respectfully disagree with him.