Best DPS class in the game?

i go for drg and brd try pulling of a AKspeed with 2bards, you laugh at LB's

Honestly, I'd still favor my Monk over the other classes. As long as you properly cycle between stacking your skills and dots, you should not have any reason to suffer from TP loss as much as others might think this to be so. Even as far as Titan Hard, I've only ever had the issue of hitting my bottom TP with a few bosses in my run, but that was primarily due to the extreme consistency of my attacks I had been allowed before the boss would break off in some way.

The Black Mage is better in DPS for aoe consistency. They are a reliable damage dealer for many battle situations (e.g. - Add spawn or the like), as is the monk for dependance on single target damage (e.g. - bosses), and so forth. To truth be told, all damage dealers are good dealers. But they all have their pros and cons to promote the battle field in their own way.

I think it is probably time to start revisiting the whole idea of bards mobility leading to a huge advantage. Early on in the game when we were all learning the fights then undoubtedly bards ability to spam attacks was a significant advantage. Further down the line when we are mostly better aware of the timing in fights and when to use abilities and which to use I think it is possibly less of a clear advantage.
I main BLM in 2.0, in 1.0 I started as LNC main and eventually wound up as MNK main so have some experience of both mellee an ranged dps. Early on in 2.0 I did find that a similarly geared bard would out dps me primarily because of the mobility factor. As time has gone on though I feel that has changed. Knowing when and where to cast which spell has made a huge difference in the lack of mobility. The reason I think that a lot of BLM still under perform is the rigid sticking to the accepted rotation.
An example would be against the wall in AK. Some BLM would wait for the next move before casting as they didn't have time for the long cast before the blue goo moved, or would start casting it and have to move mid cast. As we learn better we know when we should be throwing in a scathe or using that little gap to use another ability.
This situation is probably true of other jobs too, as we learn fights and our jobs better then the ease of use of bard may become less of an advantage.

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all damage dealers are good dealers

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excuse me, but are you accusing me of selling drugs?

So, when you guys are talking about damage... are you speaking about against a stationary training dummy.... a fight against a mob that only lasts a few seconds where you barely get through your entire rotation.... or a boss, where you actually have to 'move' due to it's mechanics forcing you to after you get through just one rotation, long enough for mp/tp to build back up just about before you're attacking it again?

Yah. lol aka parsers 'are' broken when it comes to dots... and dots is a summoner's dmg. Summoner's damage can be disgustingly high. I have a friend who was doing coil on a smn and coil on his blm. Both have pretty much the same gear + relic. We decided to use the burn method on Cad in turn 1 to turn it into a dps race, so after letting him be blm he wanted to switch over to smn. He did, and he as well as the rest of us felt his smn dmg blew his blm out of the water at least in that fight. And i've seen what his smn has done in comparison to other dps jobs and black mages in comparison. A summoner's damage is really no joke. BLMs have large numbers, i'll give you that. But between fight duration and their consistency with high movement battles... It's 'burst' Vs. the consistency of all those dots still going while you have to move around, dodge, ect., the same way a brd can keep constant and roll face as he's running about.

MRD seems to be ahead of everything else by a fair margin on anything that doesn't move.

MNK!!!
(until I become lvl 50 BLM/ ^^)

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Originally Posted by Ronzeru

(snip) It's 'burst' Vs. the consistency of all those dots still going while you have to move around, dodge, ect., the same way a brd can keep constant and roll face as he's running about.

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If any BLM has difficulty maintaining their damage while being forced to move, they need to l2play their Class. I'm sorry -- I've seen numerous threads QQ'ing about how gimped BLMs feel during movement-intensive fights. I just don't get it. Between FS/TC proccs, Swiftcast, Scathe, Manawall, and Aeth Manip., I have yet to find a single instance where having to move has made me miss a GCD or has had a substantial impact upon my DPS. There are (to my knowledge, both through empirical data and research) no fights that require 100% movement throughout the entire fight.

From everything I've seen - in an ideal situation where you're on boss 100% of the time Monk & Summoner have the highest paper dps.

However, they both have slower ramp times so movement intense fights can get a bit dumpy on them, there are ways around this of course and knowing the fights reduces this, but yeah. Bards do consistent damage because they laugh at movement, but in a straight "patchwerk" dps fight, they would be close to the bottom with dragoon / blm floating in between (haven't seen any hard numbers on dragoons, don't play with any normally).

All classes have DoTs, and all classes have ramp up time.

Also summoner is by far the best dps on boss when you don't have 100% uptime on boss.

DoTs tick regardless of whether you're on the boss or not, and summoner DoTs are ~60.83 pps, which is roughly 65% of a summoner's personal dps, or 75% of the summoner's total dps (including pet on boss) even when the summoner is doing nothing but staring at the ground.

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Originally Posted by Ronzeru

Yah. lol aka parsers 'are' broken when it comes to dots... and dots is a summoner's dmg. Summoner's damage can be disgustingly high. I have a friend who was doing coil on a smn and coil on his blm. Both have pretty much the same gear + relic. We decided to use the burn method on Cad in turn 1 to turn it into a dps race, so after letting him be blm he wanted to switch over to smn. He did, and he as well as the rest of us felt his smn dmg blew his blm out of the water at least in that fight. And i've seen what his smn has done in comparison to other dps jobs and black mages in comparison.

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cool story bro...also you left out after the win he went down to the local bar and had a 1 night stand with a super model...lmfao

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Originally Posted by Shisou

If any BLM has difficulty maintaining their damage while being forced to move, they need to l2play their Class. I'm sorry -- I've seen numerous threads QQ'ing about how gimped BLMs feel during movement-intensive fights. I just don't get it. Between FS/TC proccs, Swiftcast, Scathe, Manawall, and Aeth Manip., I have yet to find a single instance where having to move has made me miss a GCD or has had a substantial impact upon my DPS. There are (to my knowledge, both through empirical data and research) no fights that require 100% movement throughout the entire fight.

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LOL! This comming from a FULL AF Black Mage with not even a primal weapon. Tells me you haven't done any end game boss battles.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

DoTs tick regardless of whether you're on the boss or not, and summoner DoTs are ~60.83 pps, which is roughly 65% of a summoner's personal dps, or 75% of the summoner's total dps (including pet on boss) even when the summoner is doing nothing but staring at the ground.

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W-Wha...?

65% of Summoner's personal DPS but 75% of summoner's total dps?
how's that even possible math-wise.
I don't think you had Garuda's dot extention-ability in mind when you wrote that
lets say you deal 100dps without and 150dps with pet
then that means your dots deal 65dps without and 112 dps with a pet?


also there is a difference between having the need of 3-4 global cooldowns as a ramp up time (SMN) and just one or 2 (BLM) especially when it comes to burst/lower HP stuff, or even certain phases during boss fights
dots can be both good and bad, depending on how the boss/fight is designed

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Originally Posted by KrayZee

W-Wha...?

65% of Summoner's personal DPS but 75% of summoner's total dps?
how's that even possible math-wise.

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He means the pet stays on the boss while you do not. e.g.: 65% with no pet, 75% when the pet is still attacking.

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Originally Posted by PessimiStick

He means the pet stays on the boss while you do not. e.g.: 65% with no pet, 75% when the pet is still attacking.

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which is exactly what can't be right, it should be the other way around

Sorry, the wording is confusing.

Regardless of pet, you do ~65% of your personal DPS with DoTs.

If you have your pet on your target while you go attack or do something else, you retain 75% of your single target dps on the boss.

If your pet cannot attack the target either, then you still do ~65% of your personal dps, but ~49% of your total single target dps on the boss.

So even if you can't see or interact with the boss in any way, unless it is invulnerable, you do 50% of your usual damage to it.

If you have your pet on it, you do about 75% of your usual dps to it.

EDIT: ps the numbers are a bit off, cause this was napkin math.

Based on previous analysis, loss of ruin is ~15.6% of your personal dps lost, or ~12% total dps loss.
Losing (or not having) your pet is close to a 25% dps loss.

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Originally Posted by McDizz

However, they both have slower ramp times so movement intense fights can get a bit dumpy on them, there are ways around this of course and knowing the fights reduces this, but yeah. Bards do consistent damage because they laugh at movement, but in a straight "patchwerk" dps fight, they would be close to the bottom with dragoon / blm floating in between (haven't seen any hard numbers on dragoons, don't play with any normally).

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This is actually my main angst with Monk. If a team can't properly balance aggro, or if an enemy simply takes a few steps away, my skill stops and I'm stuck chasing. I have lost count of how many times I've lost my stacks to special situations and human errors in parties.

That being said, at the same time, it does not make the class impossible to play, so I'm not totally ready to go up in arms about it. But it really does handicap the class in a poor way.

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Originally Posted by DistraughtKoala

Really find it incredibly hard to see why people try to sell Summoners short.

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Perhaps those said people would rather keep SMN as their secret DPS, when you boast too many accomplishment on how great the class at doing this and that, you are asking for an "adjustment", better keep saying the same thing, SMN DPS = very bad!!

Bard or atleast that's what most people say until we get nerfed in 2.1

/thread

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Originally Posted by Lecreuset

Bard or atleast that's what most people say until we get nerfed in 2.1

/thread

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From looking through this thread there doesn't appear to be a "most". Doesn't sound like much of a /thread

Bard without a doubt. Also easiest to play.

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Originally Posted by sakraycore

Bard without a doubt. Also easiest to play.

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Come now, don't contribute to the mass confusion. BRD never was top DPS, not even close lol. The reason so many people thought so (and some apparently continue to think so) is because it is incredibly easy to play compared to the rest, and puts on almost comparable DPS as well. The risk/reward balance is off, and thus it will get adjusted.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Come now, don't contribute to the mass confusion. BRD never was top DPS, not even close lol. The reason so many people thought so (and some apparently continue to think so) is because it is incredibly easy to play compared to the rest, and puts on almost comparable DPS as well. The risk/reward balance is off, and thus it will get adjusted.

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That isn't exactly correct either. There is no less risk as bard than the other two ranged dps nor is it really easier to play.

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Originally Posted by Woodberry

That isn't exactly correct either. There is no less risk as bard than the other two ranged dps nor is it really easier to play.

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Brd is far easier to play then smn, and blm still has to cast, so they loose dps when they have to move while brds do not.

Brds also have "better" aoe then smn. I use "" cause a well placed bane will do better or just as good as a brd. Brd is just easier to play

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Originally Posted by Woodberry

That isn't exactly correct either. There is no less risk as bard than the other two ranged dps nor is it really easier to play.

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No... it pretty much is entirely easier to play.

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Originally Posted by Jinfire

Brd is far easier to play then smn, and blm still has to cast, so they loose dps when they have to move while brds do not.

Brds also have "better" aoe then smn. I use "" cause a well placed bane will do better or just as good as a brd. Brd is just easier to play

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SMNs having to micro manage pets makes them a bit tougher, but realistically all of the ranged are easy to play with BLM being the easiest. Melee just don't like BRDs because they believe their dps is too easy and they are taking their spots in groups. It isn't BRD dps that makes them great, it is the utility. They provide mana for healers, dps boost for casters, 10% damage taken reduction for tanks, and a ranged silence for everyone! I will admit having all that utility is too much.

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Originally Posted by Woodberry

SMNs having to micro manage pets makes them a bit tougher, but realistically all of the ranged are easy to play with BLM being the easiest. Melee just don't like BRDs because they believe their dps is too easy and they are taking their spots in groups. It isn't BRD dps that makes them great, it is the utility. They provide mana for healers, dps boost for casters, 10% damage taken reduction for tanks, and a ranged silence for everyone! I will admit having all that utility is too much.

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BLM and BRD are both easy. They are easier than SMN, for the reasons you pointed out.

BRD, however, is far easier than BLM. Set up 1 macro and all you ever have to really do 90% of the time is hit that 1 button and apply dots. Other than that you're just rotating your buffs.

You can mess up your rotation/mp management and/or buffs or get interrupted on BLM due to an AoE or having to move out of the way of something.

BRD can move freely and continue its pew-pew non stop. Also, there's really no risk of messing anything up on BRD as far as straight DPS goes. No buff that when not managed right results in a massive dps loss.

All of the above obviously under the assumption that you know what you're doing on either job and know the optimal rotations, etc.

so BLM is better than SMN?

I would say that for optimal dps, bard and BLM require extremely (to the point of completely impossible given lag) amazing reflexes.

The problem lies within the way the dps classes are designed.

Of the 5 classes designed, 2 have procs, and no rotation (essentially all filler abilities, 1 dot, etc), and 3 have set rotations with zero variance.

Of course fight mechanics dictate variance, and the unmerciful yoke of DoTs and Buff timers is what adds complexity to the classes.

Given a perfectly standstill, zero mechanic fight, it is easier to play SMN, MNK, DRG than it is to play BLM, BRD optimally.

I understand melee have complex rotations, I understand all that you have to remember, however this comes with experience and preparation. A prepared nonproc class will always do optimal dps - note optimal dps is not "perfect" paper dps, but it is that they are able to plan out and do 100% of their possible dps given the circumstances.

Now, I am willing to bet noone has ever done "perfect" dps with either BLM or BRD, simply because of the reaction times and lag involved.

The reason these classes are perceived as easy is because the difference between suboptimal and "perfect" dps is EXTREMELY small, and furthermore, both respond very well to nonoptimal play and nonoptimal situations.

And thus back to why, even though SMN, DRG, MNK rotations are supposedly "solved" games, aka, able to be planned arbitrarily number of steps in advance, they are more difficult. Because the difficulty lies in responding to nonoptimal events.

Thus we can rank them based on how hard they are punished for "messing up", or playing suboptimally.

And that is what they were getting at in the producer letter too.

They aren't nerfing bards because their damage was too high, but because it was too easy to not be affected by really anything, leaving their dps relatively high compared to similarly skilled players. I am not talking about the top 1% of raiders here.

They aren't buffing melee damage because it is too low, they're making it easier for melee to stay on target, and making it so they are not punished so much for being forced to be suboptimal.

Humm, you're putting a lot of emphasis on the procs. Bloodletter is not relevant in the "procs are harder" capacity since it's automatically used off the GCD on macro. E.g. a proc you pay no attention to does not add any difficulty. Straighter Shot is the only Bard proc worth mentioning in that context, and it's a low frequency proc. I doubt there would be a significant difference between a modeled / perfect-simulated / imperfect-simulated execution of SS procs.

BLM Firestarter has a much higher chance to proc, so it interferes much more often (note: I'm a bit dubious that using a SS proc off its normal cycle is even worth it at all due to the Straighter Shot proc rate ... but that's a simulation exercise).

Edit: As a sidenote in your assessment: BLMs have a deficit for reacting to mechanics due to their cast times. This is why a BLM is harder to play than a Bard in a general execution sense, although the BRD gets bonus "silence or wipe" responsibility, so it could be considered "harder" in that sense.

Mmmhmm, Easy, thats my point.

In order to be perfect, it takes ridiculous concentration and reaction time (and no lag).

But playing either at 98% dps takes very little effort.

Thats kinda what I wanted to point out.

Playing the proc dps at 100% efficiency I think is "harder" in some absolute sense because it is more taxing on player concentration, but playing either to "acceptable" is much much easier than the rotational based classes.

I dunno how to more explain it without confusing myself XD

Also yes, you are right in that SS procs are a massive drain on TP.

I just simmed, on a fight with 2 targets, bard does some pretty extremely high damage, however goes out of TP in <3 minutes.

It may be more efficient TP wise to conserve SS procs.

But frankly bard will always have enough tp every ~20 seconds for SS, WB, VB, and has around 2 HS to spare.

It does NOT have enough TP when dry to full DoT two targets.

Honestly, with invigorate having a 2 min CD and giving 400 TP, I've never had a TP issue unless I'm keeping up the damage debuff for a very extended period, which is never really the case.

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Originally Posted by xyaie

From looking through this thread there doesn't appear to be a "most". Doesn't sound like much of a /thread

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2 threads over 20 pages(probably more) crying about bard and being glad it's getting some adjustments. Look harder.

/thread

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Originally Posted by Lecreuset

2 threads over 20 pages(probably more) crying about bard and being glad it's getting some adjustments. Look harder.

/thread

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BRD's not getting nerfed because it is the top DPS. It is getting nerfed because it is capable of more DPS than it was meant to be as a safe, ranged class with high mobility.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

BRD's not getting nerfed because it is the top DPS. It is getting nerfed because it is capable of more DPS than it was meant to be as a safe, ranged class with high mobility.

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I couldn't care less what they do and why(unless they made bards more of a support roll then I'd be really happy), I'm still gonna be able to play it effectively. I'm just saying what I see people say/complain about in the forums.

Meh... it doesn't matter what the stats are right now. If anything gets too powerful SE will just nerf it anyway; they always do. So just play what you like and try to play it as well as you can and remember it's a GAME. That said, if ONE MORE PERSON CALLS MY CHARACTER A TOON MY HEAD IS GOING TO EXPLODE! ^.~

Really though, SMN only has to stop to cast for 3 of the 4 DoTs and they cast pretty quickly. They also last a long time with Contagion. Ruin II is great for mobile fights as well, and your pet is always attacking regardless. SMN is well balanced/unique DPS that can always be damaging the mob/boss no matter what the circumstances may be(aside from invulnerability lol).

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Originally Posted by ZyloSladek

The dps class played by a competent person.

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The true fact XD

Funny how the BRD bashing began and stopped----> dead tread until someone necroed...

Yes, BRD seemed like an OP class, but once the serious game began:

single target:
1.MNK
2.BLM
3.BRD or SMN
4.DRG

Not too many brave enough to put this up, or test it, but I have witnessed some experiments with MRD that could challenge spots 2 or 3 for single target damage, given the fight doesn't take too long (huge burst with cds popped, strings of 1200+ crits, 4-5 in a row, may do for a great pvp dps spec) that's with DRG/MNK ilvl60 gear and Titan's axe.

AOE:
1.BLM or SMN
2.BRD
the rest fall on bonus damage for 1 and 2.