The new concept screenshot is a real-time in-game render!

as long as the new engine makes the game less system intensive I'm happy with the way it looks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shipp

That is an awesome UI. What unit frames are you using? I used to use a few different add-ons to completely customize my UI like that, but I got tired of having to wait a couple days for them to be updated after a new patch, though lately, it's more like a few hours at most so I might give it a shot again.

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The unit frames are Pitbull4. I took several hints from Aliena's UI.

It's really great to see people that know what they are talking about. Majority of the issues with addons are related to the people using them much like misusing any given tool. The lack of addons won't make those types of people stop existing. It also won't let you into a group with the better players that want to succeed when you don't have the gear or dps output to pull your weight.

Addons like Gearscore/Recount/Skada etc are only making information more accessible that was already there. The content itself doesn't have a requirement for the most part, it's all player based restrictions because they want to succeed and not waste hours wiping constantly on dumb things.

Damage meters are very useful when they are used properly to see if you are even capable of beating an enrage timer and being able to see who isn't doing what they are supposed. It's also never a bad thing to have some friendly competition to see who can do better and push eachother to improve,

Something I really hope is in the works is multiple action bars that can have keybindings.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

The unit frames are Pitbull4.

It's really great to see people that know what they are talking about. Majority of the issues with addons are related to the people using them much like misusing any given tool. The lack of addons won't make those types of people stop existing. It also won't let you into a group with the better players that want to succeed when you don't have the gear or dps output to pull your weight.

Addons like Gearscore/Recount/Skada etc are only making information more accessible that was already there. The content itself doesn't have a requirement for the most part, it's all player based restrictions because they want to succeed and not waste hours wiping constantly on dumb things.

Damage meters are very useful when they are used properly to see if you are even capable of beating an enrage timer and being able to see who isn't doing what they are supposed. It's also never a bad thing to have some friendly competition to see who can do better and push eachother to improve,

Something I really hope is in the works is multiple action bars that can have keybindings.

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Thanks! I had Pitbull at one time, though I couldn't remember which add-on I had that looked like those bars.

The only reason I use damage meters is because I like to tighten up my rotation and when I know I'm capable of pulling 12k on a 340 ilvl character and I see myself pulling 10k, I know I need to start paying attention. I think a lot of people who don't play WoW think the majority use Recount to eliminate "noobs" when that's just not the case. Sure, some people do, but most of us use these damage meters to measure our own effectiveness. I don't care what the other people at 85 are pulling in a heroic as long as it's above 6k (and even that's low). If you're pulling under 6k, you simply don't know how to play and should read up on your class.

I was in a Heroic Deadmines group earlier and DPS'd the first half and then switched to healing after Reaper. I was pulling a consistent 12k on a toon with like 340 ilvl. I was highest DPS (in PvP gear lol) and I only hit 85 on that Shaman 4 days ago. Tank was pulling 10k, one other DPS was pulling 9k, and the lowest was pulling 3.4k. The warrior pulling 3.4k obviously sucked, but he was new to 85 and was cool to talk to. He stated he was new and that he'd been playing 2 years but really only liked playing the AH and finally decided to try dungeons. Was I carrying him? Absolutely. Did I care? Not at all. He was willing to learn, when we wiped on a few fights, I stayed there along with another member and we just waited for new players if someone dropped. I explained the fights to him and told him not to eat "rotten food" on Cookie, but that I would eat the food near the pot and he could eat any normal food near him to get a haste buff. We cleared the dungeon and even did Vanessa and by the end he was pulling 7k.

Many of us using these addons are willing to help people as long as they are honest. If you're pulling very low DPS but tell me you're new to the fight and don't know what to do, I am more than willing to explain it to you. We were all in that position at one point, just because you showed up a little later does not make you bad. What makes you bad is when you're pulling horrible DPS and lie and say you know the fight and start blaming your own mistakes on other people or the infamous "lag" when it's quite apparent you are NOT lagging.

I am not a special case in WoW either. I would wager the majority of players in endgame events are willing to help newer players out, as long as they are honest and make it known they are willing to improve. It's when people lie about knowing the fights when they don't that we start getting ticked. I've been in PuG raids that I've never done before and I've only read the raid journal on (new feature implemented in Cata that explains the boss and lists the major attacks and what they do) and stated it in raid chat that I just need a few tips and 99% of the raids I've been in have been more than happy to help me. When we pull up to a boss, before the pull I usually start explaining it over vent or raid chat if it's a boss I'm familiar with. A lot of people are scared to say they're new to a fight because of this stigma that is really unfounded that if you aren't out-gearing the boss and know it inside and out, you'll be kicked. Once you're in a raid, you aren't going to be kicked unless you're dead weight, because that means someone has to go back to town to shout for your replacement and risking the rest of the raid falling apart.

I really wish people who aren't familiar with WoW's endgame (and I mean people who actually partake in it, not people who know someone who has raided in WoW) would stop bringing it up in relation to add-ons, because the vast majority of those people are making false assumptions, lying, have no clue what they're talking about, or a combination of all three.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shipp

You have very little experience about WoW. You mainly played on a private server, and you claim you've played since Cata, yet nobody uses gearscore in Cata. This sounds like you are simply repeating what you've heard other WoW players say, damned if it's true or not.

The addons don't tell you whether a player sucks. You bitching about an addon stopping you from joining a raid because you're undergeared is what shows you suck. XI had the exact same limitations, though the execution differed, as many people have pointed out. You're fooling yourself if you think it's even a valid comparison.

You don't understand how WoW works, and I highly doubt you have done any serious endgame in WoW. You claim your GF has healed without any healing addons. This is simply ridiculous. She might have healed dungeons that you leveled in, but she did not heal raids. If you're trying to say that she healed raids without addons, then she is being carried, or more likely, you're lying about your actual experience of the game to try to boost your credibility. No serious raid healer is not going to have a healing addon. Those that don't are being carried, simple. It has nothing to do with skill, before you start on that. It has everything to do with how the above poster stated, "mouse travel time." There is no extra skill involved with performing clicking on a raid frame and then pressing a button instead of clicking on that frame and it healing with whatever you press while mousing over the frame. It is faster and more efficient, and nobody is going to perform two separate steps which don't need to be separate in the first place, faster than the person using an addon to cut out the slow-down from unneeded UI clicking steps.

You don't like WoW, we all get that loud and clear. You aren't talking about personal experience though, because you're using ridiculous numbers like "500 ilvl" when there is no way to even get 400 ilvl in the game at the moment. Same with the gearscore numbers you've provided, and that addon hasn't even been used for nearly a year. It was broken when Cata launched, and I don't even know if it was ever fixed or not since ilvl is better and everyone uses that instead.

You straight up make shit up about WoW, and you treat the game as if it's an ex girlfriend who cheated on you with 50 men. You slander it, lie about it, and harass it in literally 95% of your posts. You did this on Eorzeapedia, and you said I was the reason you were leaving, and you're still doing it here. EVERY post I read from you mentions WoW. The crap is old dude. People bashed WoW back in 2004, 7 years later and you are still beating the dusty remains of that horse. Get over it. WoW did not do a damn thing to you, and anyone who plays it can tell you are lying through your teeth or you are exaggerating in the most extreme case possible.

Any change in XIV that makes it more accessible to new players and you start harping it's like WoW. You harp that the new UI SS looks like WoW. You harp that the new graphics look like WoW. You harp that 2.0 is a WoW clone. You harp and harp and harp about WoW. You bring up WoW more than any person that even plays WoW. You are obsessed with the game that you supposedly hate. YOU come off looking like a sad person who has an unhealthy obsession with a video game that you don't even play. It's almost like you're a closet WoW fan, yet you're too proud to admit that something other than Final Fantasy can be popular. You'd rather Final Fantasy continue on the failing track that Tanaka was driving it down than welcome much needed changes that will actually help this game make some modicum of a come back.

Let the WoW issue die. Even people I'd consider whiteknights on this forum have told you flat out that you're wrong about aspects like graphics in 2.0 (BASED ON A CONCEPT RENDERED SHOT) looking like WoW. It's time to give it a rest, and quite frankly, a lot of people have told you to can it, even people on "your side."

Edit: Aradon, perfect post, and I'm glad you explained what most of the addons do and how they are definitely NOT playing the game for you. Definitely a like from me.

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Ahh nvm

all i'm going to say is i only played private server servers back in 2008/2009 and play real wow 2010-2011 and quit.

If they add the addon then fine i deal with it like i did in wow :) no need to quote me again i understand what you said.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Baxter

addon, and UI discussion aside. I really hope they do not implement the need to attain a certain gear score before you can enter/participate in a dungeon or raid. That sounds really stupid and unnecessary

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If a gear score type add-on comes in place, as everything else, this would be a player created problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

The unit frames are Pitbull4. I took several hints from Aliena's UI.

It's really great to see people that know what they are talking about. Majority of the issues with addons are related to the people using them much like misusing any given tool. The lack of addons won't make those types of people stop existing. It also won't let you into a group with the better players that want to succeed when you don't have the gear or dps output to pull your weight.

Addons like Gearscore/Recount/Skada etc are only making information more accessible that was already there. The content itself doesn't have a requirement for the most part, it's all player based restrictions because they want to succeed and not waste hours wiping constantly on dumb things.

Damage meters are very useful when they are used properly to see if you are even capable of beating an enrage timer and being able to see who isn't doing what they are supposed. It's also never a bad thing to have some friendly competition to see who can do better and push eachother to improve,

Something I really hope is in the works is multiple action bars that can have keybindings.

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So much sense and truth in this thread, why can't the rest of you be half as accommodating :P

Gearscore is not guna be an issue in FFXIV because from what I know FFXIV doesn't have different item levels for armour at the same level.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nasomi

That's kind of terrible. There's a lot i hate about that screenshot. For one, I hope it's a boss fight, toherwise I see no reason to have that many people in a party. What's witht he crap around the map? Multiple toolbars? I can't see what that stuff is in the lower right. Looks very non-controller friendly, sort of like what a friend had up in wow, when he was just mashing buttons left and right. I hope it doens't look like that at all. I like the simplistic look, less is more.

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Maybe the UI for the PS3 will be a bit different? Who knows? All I'm hoping for is to get into the PS3 Beta next year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nasomi

That's kind of terrible. There's a lot i hate about that screenshot. For one, I hope it's a boss fight, toherwise I see no reason to have that many people in a party. What's witht he crap around the map? Multiple toolbars? I can't see what that stuff is in the lower right. Looks very non-controller friendly, sort of like what a friend had up in wow, when he was just mashing buttons left and right. I hope it doens't look like that at all. I like the simplistic look, less is more.

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Looks controller friendly to me. o_o. We got freaking Matsui doing our UI, he is a the UI genius who worked on Final Fantasy Tactics. I am sure it will flow for us gamepad users.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aradon

In short, addons are not the evil people here feel they are. They help enhance an interface that in turn makes the game more enjoyable and more playable. The interface exists to translate your intent to the servers, and the better the interface accomplishes this, the better. Addons that assist gameplay may help players learn their classes, but exist to make veterans of their classes hone their skills even further. Addons that actually play classes for people are called bots and aren't actually allowed.

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Wrong!

Add-ons have the complete power to destroy a game without any abuse or misuse. Exactly as they have in WoW. There are thousands of players who do not understand how to play their class in WoW without add-ons. I am one of them. I was convinced into playing wow by co-workers and so the first thing I did was copy a friends add-on profile and have him show me what to do. When the game gets patched and it breaks my add-ons I have no clue if someone is cursed or if my Fingers of Frost are up and what have you. Add-ons that tell you what to do next after a skill only add to the lack of knowledge in how to properly use your class.

This is detrimental to the game no matter how you spin it. If we end up with shortcut add-ons like decursive for example (I'm sure there are better examples) it's all over. I am absolutely fine with things like UI skins, CD timers, parsers (AKA DPS meters) and non-altering add-ons. The second you throw in shortcut add-ons you break FFXIV. Even if, only for the simple fact that at leas 1/2 the population will be playing with a controller and targeting a shortcut will be nearly impossible.

Shipp actually illustrate my point perfectly with "You claim your GF has healed without any healing addons. This is simply ridiculous. No serious raid healer is not going to have a healing addon." If the game requires a 3rd party add-on in order to fulfill your task then it is broken, end of story.

On top of that comes serious balance issues and the result of inaccurate game balance is Elite mobs with 500k HP and no tactical strategy required to beat them. There is no other way around it besides making everything generic like Blizzard has done. Because the field is so vastly split due to which add-ons are used and by whom that the designers have to compensate with simplicity and numbers e.g. more trash mobs, higher HP and less or no visual clues.

Personally I cannot stand most of the WoW add-ons on my screen. They are designed by amateurs with literally no understanding of aesthetics or visual design and they clutter up your screen so bad that all you see is add-ons and nothing in the game. But, because WoW is such a cluster**** of a game, I have to use them. There is no choice and therefore I am forced to live with an even uglier version of an already ugly game.

Yes, some are great to have and I'm not completely against them as a whole but to say that there is nothing negative about them is absolutely ignorant.

I guess I'll just enjoy getting good at the game without information in 10 windows on my screen.

I'll just be sure to tell everyone that I have the add-ons installed <_<

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I guess I'll just enjoy getting good at the game without information in 10 windows on my screen.

I'll just be sure to tell everyone that I have the add-ons installed <_<

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^This

loladdons

I miss the days when gamers were good and didn't just think that they were.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Synfrag

Wrong!

Add-ons have the complete power to destroy a game without any abuse or misuse. Exactly as they have in WoW. There are thousands of players who do not understand how to play their class in WoW without add-ons. I am one of them. I was convinced into playing wow by co-workers and so the first thing I did was copy a friends add-on profile and have him show me what to do. When the game gets patched and it breaks my add-ons I have no clue if someone is cursed or if my Fingers of Frost are up and what have you. Add-ons that tell you what to do next after a skill only add to the lack of knowledge in how to properly use your class.

This is detrimental to the game no matter how you spin it. If we end up with shortcut add-ons like decursive for example (I'm sure there are better examples) it's all over. I am absolutely fine with things like UI skins, CD timers, parsers (AKA DPS meters) and non-altering add-ons. The second you throw in shortcut add-ons you break FFXIV. Even if, only for the simple fact that at leas 1/2 the population will be playing with a controller and targeting a shortcut will be nearly impossible.

Shipp actually illustrate my point perfectly with "You claim your GF has healed without any healing addons. This is simply ridiculous. No serious raid healer is not going to have a healing addon." If the game requires a 3rd party add-on in order to fulfill your task then it is broken, end of story.

On top of that comes serious balance issues and the result of inaccurate game balance is Elite mobs with 500k HP and no tactical strategy required to beat them. There is no other way around it besides making everything generic like Blizzard has done. Because the field is so vastly split due to which add-ons are used and by whom that the designers have to compensate with simplicity and numbers e.g. more trash mobs, higher HP and less or no visual clues.

Personally I cannot stand most of the WoW add-ons on my screen. They are designed by amateurs with literally no understanding of aesthetics or visual design and they clutter up your screen so bad that all you see is add-ons and nothing in the game. But, because WoW is such a cluster**** of a game, I have to use them. There is no choice and therefore I am forced to live with an even uglier version of an already ugly game.

Yes, some are great to have and I'm not completely against them as a whole but to say that there is nothing negative about them is absolutely ignorant.

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http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...310_161150.jpg

This UI has all of the "essential" addons people claim are ruining the game. Tell me where the cluster**** is?

Learning disabled i think. So zenaku is doing his best to present his opinion. It is forward but what eve's i prefer his honesty in the matter.


Personally i like the new look has a lot of room for creativity and adding different styles to the new zones. As well to those saying its a bait and switch its not first letter and poll we asked for significant changes this is precisely what we're getting

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Originally Posted by Lavani

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...310_161150.jpg

This UI has all of the "essential" addons people claim are ruining the game. Tell me where the cluster**** is?

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Yes your layout is clean and you are running @1080. But you aren't in combat which means a bunch of flash indicators and such aren't running. If I still played I would ask you what you are using for UI and raid frames but idc now.

The look of it was a side comment. And more primarily directed at the terrible aesthetic design than the space they take up.

I still find this to be a lot cleaner
http://www.charlesfnelson.com/xiv.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Synfrag

But you aren't in combat which means a bunch of flash indicators and such aren't running.

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Quote:

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I still find this to be a lot cleaner
http://www.charlesfnelson.com/xiv.jpg

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Ironic. You countered with a screenshot which is outside of combat, not in a party, and not in a timed instance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raikki

Ironic. You countered with a screenshot which is outside of combat, not in a party, and not in a timed instance.

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What are you trying to somehow say FFXIV is as cluttered as Wow's interface?

You and I both know that even in battle, in a party, with a lev screen up it's less cluttered still.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raikki

Ironic. You countered with a screenshot which is outside of combat, not in a party, and not in a timed instance.

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and that still not even as full as how WoW can get with Addons to display information which make it not clean but hey you know that just me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jynx

What are you trying to somehow say FFXIV is as cluttered as Wow's interface?

You and I both know that even in battle, in a party, with a lev screen up it's less cluttered still.

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No? I'm saying that pointing out how "clean" FFXIV looks when you're sitting in town not doing anything is a useless comparison. However, anyone can see that some things, like XIV's current action bars for instance, are a lot clunkier than you can do in WoW using addons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Synfrag

Wrong!

Add-ons have the complete power to destroy a game without any abuse or misuse. Exactly as they have in WoW. There are thousands of players who do not understand how to play their class in WoW without add-ons. I am one of them. I was convinced into playing wow by co-workers and so the first thing I did was copy a friends add-on profile and have him show me what to do. When the game gets patched and it breaks my add-ons I have no clue if someone is cursed or if my Fingers of Frost are up and what have you. Add-ons that tell you what to do next after a skill only add to the lack of knowledge in how to properly use your class.

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This is you mis-using add-ons. When I started playing WoW, I played with no add-ons. Then, when I became frustrated with being unable to relate my performance to anything else, I installed recount. Then, when I decided I could react better to bosses with timer displays, I installed DBM. When I had trouble keeping my threat in check, I installed something to monitor my threat. They're tools, and you get the ones you need.

Your comments regarding balance are an issue the Devs would have to be aware of. The WoW dev team decided to embrace add-ons at the highest level content, to extend the range of skill and challenge at the top end, while leaving dungeons to be balanced without expecting add-ons. Even then, there is grey area, as I expect Firelands could be managed without healer add-ons, just not heroic Firelands. Still, if the Dev team felt that the FF XIV playerbase wants the game to be balanced without add-ons, then it can be balanced so they aren't expected or needed.

To address a couple of the other things you have said as well:
- You said that things like decursive will be unfair to controller users. This isn't really true, as controller users have other options for their add-ons. Things like bumpers to shortcut to party selection for healing, or in this example, simply holding L2 or something to shortcut a spell like Remove Curse. There's no reason that add-ons can't be made to take advantage of controller input methods; they simply don't map over 1:1.
- You said that you can't stand most of the WoW add-ons, but are forced to use them. This is simply untrue. Once I learned to manage my threat, I could turn my Omen meter off. Once I brought my dps up to an acceptable level, I hid my recount damage meter. Having Deadly Boss Mods on is hardly an information overflow, and even that isn't absolutely required. You could totally get through fights just listening to raid communication, skill, and timing memory if you cared to put that much effort into it. If you don't care that much, then I guess you'd prefer having the raid interfaces available to you. It's always an option, and I doubt the Dev team would start balancing to require add-ons, considering how vocal those against this have been.
- No matter how much you claim that add-ons will deter someone from learning there class, it is impossible to dispute the fact that most add-ons improve someone's understanding of the class. Threat meters teach you what is an is not appropriate for skill timing, and most of all, dps meters allow you to gauge your overall efficiency, and if and where you need to improve. The feedback allows players to experiment with different rotations or ideas and actually see if it was effective. You will note that players already do this with parsers outside of the game because it is so important. Whatever harm is done by those add-ons that tell you what spell to cast is vastly outweighed by the benefits of instant feedback and learning through playing offered by other add-ons. In terms of being good or bad for player learning, you can't say to remove all of them just because of the few add-ons that give you your rotations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Synfrag

Wrong!

Add-ons have the complete power to destroy a game without any abuse or misuse. Exactly as they have in WoW. There are thousands of players who do not understand how to play their class in WoW without add-ons. I am one of them. I was convinced into playing wow by co-workers and so the first thing I did was copy a friends add-on profile and have him show me what to do. When the game gets patched and it breaks my add-ons I have no clue if someone is cursed or if my Fingers of Frost are up and what have you. Add-ons that tell you what to do next after a skill only add to the lack of knowledge in how to properly use your class.

This is detrimental to the game no matter how you spin it. If we end up with shortcut add-ons like decursive for example (I'm sure there are better examples) it's all over. I am absolutely fine with things like UI skins, CD timers, parsers (AKA DPS meters) and non-altering add-ons. The second you throw in shortcut add-ons you break FFXIV. Even if, only for the simple fact that at leas 1/2 the population will be playing with a controller and targeting a shortcut will be nearly impossible.

Shipp actually illustrate my point perfectly with "You claim your GF has healed without any healing addons. This is simply ridiculous. No serious raid healer is not going to have a healing addon." If the game requires a 3rd party add-on in order to fulfill your task then it is broken, end of story.

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In Vanilla and BC, raid encounters became too easy when people began using add-ons like DBM. So what Blizzard did, starting in WoTLK and really ramping up in Cata was design the raids around people using add-ons. EVERYONE has equal access to them. People not wanting to download them are the same as people who refuse to use macros. They don't think they should have to put in equal effort that other players do. Not every class has to use add-ons, healers have to use a healing add-on to pull their weight with healing. It is simply not efficient to manually click on a target frame, then press a button instead of healing as you target them.

Your issue about decursing, again, decursive has been around for ages and fights have been designed around it, starting with that guy in 70 Naxx who spammed curses.

The game is not broken just because they started designing the game around the use of add-ons. This is how a healthy MMO that is PC only SHOULD grow. Blizzard feels it is fine, and so do the majority of players. Blizzard killed one add-on in WoTLK that allowed people to draw on the screen and anyone who had that add-on would be able to see it. People were using it to mark the ground with designs to show people where to stand in certain phases. Blizzard broke it because it stopped players from having to think. All they had to do was move to the area someone drew on.

DBM is really made too big of a deal. It doesn't show every ability, it doesn't say there is fire under you unless it's an actual boss ability and he's casting it on a certain person. It says who out of your entire raid got grabbed by the boss and is unable to do anything. Something that can be viewed from the chat log (though the combat log scrolls excruciatingly fast, so there's no way people are going to reliably catch it), just like every other ability it warns of. It's the same thing as people saying, "Tiamat is about to fly in 10 seconds," in XI. Did that make the fight easier to have people aware? No, but it's useful information to know whether you should start resting. Same in WoW, it's useful to know moves like that to know that if you're a melee with no range, you shouldn't go off and pop your CDs only to waste them after 2 seconds when the raid boss becomes immune to your melee.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jynx

What are you trying to somehow say FFXIV is as cluttered as Wow's interface?

You and I both know that even in battle, in a party, with a lev screen up it's less cluttered still.

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FFXIV's toolbar is freaking horrible. With UI add-ons, you can fully customize the width, height, how much buffer space is between the buttons, how thick the borders should be, the shape of the buttons, whether you want a portrait for party frames, whether you want to show Mana and energy for other players, whether you want absolutely no toolbars whatsoever because you can just hide them and have them keybound and memorized, whether you want damage to show up on the screen or just in the combat log, which way said damage scrolls on the screen, how fast it scrolls, if it arcs out or goes in a straight line or is over the target's head, the color of the scrolling combat numbers, whether they have the ability/spell icon next to them, how large they should be, whether you want crits colored another way or larger than the rest, or even showing up in their own set area... How many mobs should the debuff timer track, how many buffs will show up on your screen, whether to consolidate all buffs into one box that you can mouseover and then see them, etc, etc.

You can show as little or as much as you want. I could have a UI which shows nothing but the chat log if I wanted, and even then, I could get rid of that. This argument about XIV's UI looking better when the toolbar isn't even brought up in that picture is foolish. I much prefer Lavani's UI screenshot, because it's -fully- customizable.

Also, when talking to an NPC and they say something in the chat-log AND that little box that pops up in the middle of the screen that you can't resize... yeah. It looks bad, especially since it only shows a few lines of text instead of just reading it all in the chat log. Why is it even there when we already have a chat log? It's useless. It's showing the exact same information twice and unnecessarily clutters the screen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raikki

Ironic. You countered with a screenshot which is outside of combat, not in a party, and not in a timed instance.

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Well I wasn't going to form a party and enter Darkhold just to take a screen shot. I don't keep SS on hand sorry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aradon

This is you mis-using add-ons. When I started playing WoW, I played with no add-ons. Then, when I became frustrated with being unable to relate my performance to anything else, I installed recount. Then, when I decided I could react better to bosses with timer displays, I installed DBM. When I had trouble keeping my threat in check, I installed something to monitor my threat. They're tools, and you get the ones you need.

Your comments regarding balance are an issue the Devs would have to be aware of. The WoW dev team decided to embrace add-ons at the highest level content, to extend the range of skill and challenge at the top end, while leaving dungeons to be balanced without expecting add-ons. Even then, there is grey area, as I expect Firelands could be managed without healer add-ons, just not heroic Firelands. Still, if the Dev team felt that the FF XIV playerbase wants the game to be balanced without add-ons, then it can be balanced so they aren't expected or needed.

To address a couple of the other things you have said as well:
- You said that things like decursive will be unfair to controller users. This isn't really true, as controller users have other options for their add-ons. Things like bumpers to shortcut to party selection for healing, or in this example, simply holding L2 or something to shortcut a spell like Remove Curse. There's no reason that add-ons can't be made to take advantage of controller input methods; they simply don't map over 1:1.
- You said that you can't stand most of the WoW add-ons, but are forced to use them. This is simply untrue. Once I learned to manage my threat, I could turn my Omen meter off. Once I brought my dps up to an acceptable level, I hid my recount damage meter. Having Deadly Boss Mods on is hardly an information overflow, and even that isn't absolutely required. You could totally get through fights just listening to raid communication, skill, and timing memory if you cared to put that much effort into it. If you don't care that much, then I guess you'd prefer having the raid interfaces available to you. It's always an option, and I doubt the Dev team would start balancing to require add-ons, considering how vocal those against this have been.
- No matter how much you claim that add-ons will deter someone from learning there class, it is impossible to dispute the fact that most add-ons improve someone's understanding of the class. Threat meters teach you what is an is not appropriate for skill timing, and most of all, dps meters allow you to gauge your overall efficiency, and if and where you need to improve. The feedback allows players to experiment with different rotations or ideas and actually see if it was effective. You will note that players already do this with parsers outside of the game because it is so important. Whatever harm is done by those add-ons that tell you what spell to cast is vastly outweighed by the benefits of instant feedback and learning through playing offered by other add-ons. In terms of being good or bad for player learning, you can't say to remove all of them just because of the few add-ons that give you your rotations.

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You have some good points and I value your response. Some of these things are true in regards to players learning their classes if they choose to use them for that manner. In that case I suppose you could count it as proper use but the fact is, most people do not use add-ons to improve their skill save for recount maybe.

I'm only going off of my experience and in my experience even people who have been playing for a long time still have no idea why things happen when asked about them. I'm not in any way saying this is everyone but it is a large portion. Again I have nothing against UI mods that help organize and customize your layout. There is nothing wrong with recount or DMG meters, people will be dicks about dealing damage or your gear regardless.

It is simply my opinion that active add-ons should not be necessary or allowed. It keeps a level playing field for all of the players and keeps the focus on what the boss your fighting is doing not on when you can drop your next big nuke. When I play WoW I'm staring at where my mage nuggets pop ups are or what recount is saying instead of what is going on around me. It's just not fun, effective, but not fun.

Partying with a lot of players and most of them are WoW players they can't heal they don't know where to stand it sad that you need addon just to even play a game. Healers would stand there 5mins and then cure when someone is dead pretty much. Or if anything they would curega for Lols o.O this is the issue with Addon it make players lazy and they can't play a game without something telling you what to do.

But w/e if people want addon then w/e but at the end that type of addon is what i dislike. I had a wow friend come over he play wow for 4+years and he had to download all the addon he used just to play with me it's sound how he can't play without addon.

I understand addon like ArkInventory,Carbonite but addon that tell you how to play your class is where i say No thanks. But whatever it better having someone play with addon and do there dam job then having someone not heal you because they don't know how to play :) i guess that the good part of it all lol.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Partying with a lot of players and most of them are WoW players they can't heal they don't know where to stand it sad that you need addon just to even play a game. Healers would stand there 5mins and then cure when someone is dead pretty much. Or if anything they would curega for Lols o.O this is the issue with Addon it make players lazy and they can't play a game without something telling you what to do.

But w/e if people want addon then w/e but at the end that type of addon is what i dislike. I had a wow friend come over he play wow for 4+years and he had to download all the addon he used just to play with me it's sound how he can't play without addon.

I understand addon like ArkInventory,Carbonite but addon that tell you how to play your class is where i say No thanks. But whatever it better having someone play with addon and do there dam job then having someone not heal you because they don't know how to play :) i guess that the good part of it all lol.

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And tell me what these addons are that will tell a 100% new player what button to hit, what spell to cast, etc. I'd really like to hear it. You can keep repeating yourself over and over after every post explaining how you're wrong, it doesn't change the fact that you're still wrong.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Go to http://www.curse.com/ i sure you find a lot that tell you what Spell to use next and what to do next :) i'm sure you find a few or maybe more. Stop saying i'm wrong when a lot of people feel the same way you like addon? that fine but it's not needed not that type of addon -.-

and i am going to go on repeating to other understand that addon in that way should not be allow i can care less about the others like the few i said.

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All I'm seeing is someone that doesn't know what everyone else is talking about and trying to fit in. Healing addons consist of Grid/Clique combined with mouseover cast macros that every game should have. The only thing you are doing is complaining bad players are bad and trying to tag the issue onto WoW.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

All I'm seeing is someone that doesn't know what everyone else is talking about and trying to fit in. Healing addons consist of Grid/Clique combined with mouseover cast macros that every game should have. The only thing you are doing is complaining bad players are bad and trying to tag the issue onto WoW.

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This. Zen, if you cannot tell me which addon you are referring to, then I'm calling your bluff and stating that you don't know what you're talking about. If these adds that play the game for someone are so rampant in WoW then you should have no problem telling me which addons they are. You aren't doing that, because you're full of crap.

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Originally Posted by Synfrag

Wrong!

Add-ons have the complete power to destroy a game without any abuse or misuse. Exactly as they have in WoW. There are thousands of players who do not understand how to play their class in WoW without add-ons. I am one of them. I was convinced into playing wow by co-workers and so the first thing I did was copy a friends add-on profile and have him show me what to do. When the game gets patched and it breaks my add-ons I have no clue if someone is cursed or if my Fingers of Frost are up and what have you. Add-ons that tell you what to do next after a skill only add to the lack of knowledge in how to properly use your class.

This is detrimental to the game no matter how you spin it. If we end up with shortcut add-ons like decursive for example (I'm sure there are better examples) it's all over. I am absolutely fine with things like UI skins, CD timers, parsers (AKA DPS meters) and non-altering add-ons. The second you throw in shortcut add-ons you break FFXIV. Even if, only for the simple fact that at leas 1/2 the population will be playing with a controller and targeting a shortcut will be nearly impossible.

Shipp actually illustrate my point perfectly with "You claim your GF has healed without any healing addons. This is simply ridiculous. No serious raid healer is not going to have a healing addon." If the game requires a 3rd party add-on in order to fulfill your task then it is broken, end of story.

On top of that comes serious balance issues and the result of inaccurate game balance is Elite mobs with 500k HP and no tactical strategy required to beat them. There is no other way around it besides making everything generic like Blizzard has done. Because the field is so vastly split due to which add-ons are used and by whom that the designers have to compensate with simplicity and numbers e.g. more trash mobs, higher HP and less or no visual clues.

Personally I cannot stand most of the WoW add-ons on my screen. They are designed by amateurs with literally no understanding of aesthetics or visual design and they clutter up your screen so bad that all you see is add-ons and nothing in the game. But, because WoW is such a cluster**** of a game, I have to use them. There is no choice and therefore I am forced to live with an even uglier version of an already ugly game.

Yes, some are great to have and I'm not completely against them as a whole but to say that there is nothing negative about them is absolutely ignorant.

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Didn't read.

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Originally Posted by Shipp

This. Zen, if you cannot tell me which addon you are referring to, then I'm calling your bluff and stating that you don't know what you're talking about. If these adds that play the game for someone are so rampant in WoW then you should have no problem telling me which addons they are. You aren't doing that, because you're full of crap.

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So you don't know about addons that tell you which spell to use next? Ok then i be full of **** i don't mind if you don't believe me.

Anyways i had enough with this topic talking to you people is like talking to the wall and seeing how this topic getting out of topic there no need to talk in it anymore.

Personally I rather dislike add-ons that give too much gameplay signals. I only really want things for damage feedback and probably something like DBM for awareness just because it smooths out gameplay and cuts down on extra Vent noise. Shortcut/macro add-ons are nice, but not really necessary. I think they're worth the potential damage to allow shortcut usage in add-ons, but I would heavily argue that they're definitely not enough to bar all add-ons period. I think the gist of everything I've said to this point can be summed up in this opinion:

The damage done by imbalance from add-ons is far outweighed by the extreme value of instant feedback from damage meters and other resources offered by add-ons. The number of players who misuse add-ons and fail to learn their class ought to be smaller than those who learn/understand their class better due to improved feedback and UIs.


I think there are some legitimate concerns about balancing, and I'm sure add-ons will be misused, but the overall impact of the game should be positive, and for those players who opt for heavy add-on usage as a preference, an overwhelming positive.

(For what it's worth, WoW currently tells you when to cast many spells that are buffed from procs naturally, without add-ons. It's all "fingers of frost! gogo ice lance!" and then you get to decide whether the program's right or not. I just thought that'd be of interest here.)

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

So you don't know about addons that tell you which spell to use next? Ok then i be full of **** i don't mind if you don't believe me.

Anyways i had enough with this topic talking to you people is like talking to the wall and seeing how this topic getting out of topic there no need to talk in it anymore.

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So in other words, you don't know of those addons that you claim are in use? K. Didn't think you did, since they don't exist.

And no, none of my add-ons tell me which spell to cast next.

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Originally Posted by Aradon

(For what it's worth, WoW currently tells you when to cast many spells that are buffed from procs naturally, without add-ons. It's all "fingers of frost! gogo ice lance!" and then you get to decide whether the program's right or not. I just thought that'd be of interest here.)

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Darn. I was waiting for Zen to post a picture of WoW's built in HUD showing a FoF proc so I could explain that it is not even an add-on. It would be nice for Ele Shamans to get this like most other classes, especially for when Lava Surge procs. But oh well, it's not annoying to either use DoT timers and watch for the reset, watch for the text to scroll across SCT, or watch the hotbar to see I can cast it again. /ohnoeslazyplayer

Hello everyone!

Thank you all for posting your views on this here. However it does appear that this thread has gone very much off topic. And we will be closing it at this time. And please do remember that it is still inappropriate to talk here about Third Party Programs, even for other games. Thanks again and take care.