3.2 PvP: Feast Game Mode Discussion Thread.

Okay yea, the patch notes is wrong. They've abolished the dmg penalty completely when under WM/GB. Sorry haven't had a chance to play earlier. I just tested this myself.

I played a healer this morning and was able to heal, and move, and while it wasn't a cake walk, being able to get casts off felt great, and while I'll need to spend some more time in the system to get a better feel for it, so far I'm a fan.

The match I played also seemed more balanced, and a tank with 9 heavy metal stacks was hard to keep up... :)

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Originally Posted by Cynric

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Yea I agree some of the changes felt more like a knee jerk reaction and not nerfing sleep along with tribind is kinda silly. Personally I feel a single target CC should last 9 secs while the AoE CCs should be 6 secs.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

• Damage received is less than 15% of max HP → Casting succeeds.
• Damage received is 15% or more of max HP → Casting is interrupted.
• Sleep/Stun/Silence → Casting is interrupted (no change).

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Thank you for addressing this. People that have not yet healed in PvP situations often don't understand just how easily our spells can be interrupted by attacks of breaking line-of-sight, leading to post-game hostility from players who feel as if the healer(s) failed them. Even with Fending Accessories, I was finding that certain jobs could still interrupt me without too much trouble.

All the healers I've seen in PvP regularly switch to a DPS job because they grow tired of being harassed by other players after a loss.

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Originally Posted by Fuma

Yea I agree some of the changes felt more like a knee jerk reaction and not nerfing sleep along with tribind is kinda silly. Personally I feel a single target CC should last 9 secs while the AoE CCs should be 6 secs.

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I agree on that line of thinking. I just feel like the devs haven't sat back and actually looked at each of our PVP toolkits and seen what the jobs are capable of for themselves. If they had , they would have been able to have some sort of uniform balance a long time ago in the original den.


I feel like they're taking steps in somewhat the right direction, but at the same time they're not actually looking at the bigger picture while taking those steps. While Tri-D(bane)>Fester>Pflare>Dflare was extremely powerful, Tri-Bind was not anymore powerful than sleep. In fact it was less powerful. However Sleep was untouched and Tri-bind received a nerf. This shows to me they were extremely focused on SMN and allowing casters to do more without thinking of the kits of the other jobs.

I am happy with the casting change to an extent, iffy about the change to medal carriers, though I feel it is a good change, happy about the change to WM/GB for BRD/MCH, and laughing at the fact that a bind was nerfed while sleep remains the same, and disappointed that DRK will now be more or less dead weight for harassing healers on my team, and also amazed that they would push out a change to cast interruption that is buggy and half finished on release.

Also very disappointed that they have made no mention of their plan for seasonal rewards, premade seasonal rewards, or any data on terrible rating system.

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Originally Posted by Fuma

They went from OP in every match to... balanced? I fail to see how that makes them useless. While their dots spread from bane may not kill its still added pressure on the healer. Also a 12 second CC in PvP is insanely long, no CC should persist longer than 6 seconds to keep action flowing. 6 seconds gives you enough time to get clear away from that target. Although I will say the potency nerfs are a bit high, it should've been reduced to 180 for painflare and 360 for deathflare instead of 150 and 300 respectively, IMO.

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Oh yes. 12 seconds is very high. 6 seconds is the bare minimum. The problem is that the duration (like sleep) is halved each time you use it again. A 3 second Tri-bind is hardly worth using at all. Before, I would use Tri-bind often while waiting for Stacks to return, keep the enemy under control, etc. Meanwhile, Sleep which is worse than bind remains as is. I'm not sure it's fair.

Hmm, yeah I'm at a loss as to why SMN's bind duration got nerfed; it's not nearly as crippling as Sleep. At least when you're bound you can still potentially function, pending your job, or continue to heal and Esuna/Leeches/ED if you're a healer. Sleep offers no such luxuries. I don't see the correlation between a nerf to a bind spell whilst sleep spells are untouched, aside from the fact that the devs were so focused on toning down SMNs they didn't stop to think there's something worse in regards to crowd control.

I think the nerf in smn is getting really ridiculous. I don't understand tribind is nerf. It is the only thing I used to run away from melee. Smn has nothing to protect themselves no slow, no heavy, no sleep, no shield to protect them. We can't even catch eye on eye on ourselves.

The dots nerf are just way too much. Dragoon and mch also have big burst too why I didn't see them getting nerf. This is like SE penalty people for playing smn. Sleep is OP too. Nerf it.

buff to mch sorta makes them braindead lol

can run up, load procs with rapid fire and then blow someone up at 100% dmg at anywhere below 15m range. sort of braindead (even though i'm the one doing it)

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

buff to mch sorta makes them braindead lol

can run up, load procs with rapid fire and then blow someone up at 100% dmg at anywhere below 15m range. sort of braindead (even though i'm the one doing it)

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It's not so much a buff when decent MCHs are already sweet spotting their damage where it matters (bursts) The change to interrupt is a bit of a detriment to BRD and MCH alike since they won't be able to interrupt casts by themselves, and their sustained output outside of bursts (and not using oGCDs like headgraze and blank) is extremely subpar compared to other options (except maybe SMN now, too). And the fact that they still have a damage penalty attacking beyond 15yd, range isn't even an advantage for us anymore.

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

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Depends on who you're running up on and what they have buff/debuff/utility wise. MCH has a lot of counterplay for it already.(One Ilm Punch,Wither,Slow,Somersault,Purify,Stun During burst,Sleep/Bind/Heavy >Run away,Knockbacks such as BRD pvp skill,fluid aura,shockwave,etc, LoS during burst >heal, well placed heal/esuna/shield)
While MCH can burst really well it has enough of a telegraph that it can be avoided and requires a bit of setup to get all the way off. A smart player would be able to CC you if they saw you getting that close to them preparing for burst. Lots of jobs can even knock you out of your sweet spot range.

Basically its just , Good MCH were already able to be this way, they just got more effective at it, but the weakness of being MCH is still there and most MCH players wont be able to take full advantage of this kind of change I think.

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

buff to mch sorta makes them braindead lol

can run up, load procs with rapid fire and then blow someone up at 100% dmg at anywhere below 15m range. sort of braindead (even though i'm the one doing it)

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Sorta, at least in my Burst rotation, my procs are all set up, and I just throw up GB to release that BtE+CS+GR+Rico+SS+CS combo, and spread the Feint till I can switch GB off again. The change, imo, just gives us MCH less to think about while we Burst(damn so busy pressing buttons and checking their HP bar, I didn't check my distance x/ ) and doesn't really change the way the class is played. A good change imo.

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Originally Posted by DxWings

Well 3.22 patch notes are up. I don't really care so much for the SMN nerfs; while I was looking forward to the WM and GB buff. But boy, did it took me by surprise. The damage penalty for BRDs and MCHs are only lifted while under WM and GB AND are within 15 yalms of the target. What if they get further outside of that 15 yalms while we're stuck casting? Dmg penalty is applied again? Then there's also LoS. What was the point? Who is gonna even turn on WM/GB and stat within 15 yalms anyways? I'm obviously not gonna stand within 10 yalms and start casting just to have a melee walk up to me to have a chance at killing me. Somebody enlighten me.

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Idk and im a MCH player myself. Plus standing still to proc, that's suicide to get ko'd when they come after you.

At this point I'm not sure if they play their own game before making these decisions. It's like they'll nerf stuffs that got complained about the most.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

At this point I'm not sure if they play their own game before making these decisions. It's like they'll nerf stuffs that got complained about the most.

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Please expand on why you think smn didn't need nerfs. Or if you think they nerfed the wrong part. Elaborate and add something to the discussion

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Originally Posted by Exira

Please expand on why you think smn didn't need nerfs. Or if you think they nerfed the wrong part elaborate. Add something to the discussion

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I think taking a direct hatchet to SMN while ignoring the problems other classes have (drg auto-crit burst; ONE PUNCH MAN; scholar being hot garbage; drk being ???) is kind of strange.

I don't even think SMN was the most overpowered class in Feast (I think that's either MNK, WHM or PLD), so it's strange that they were targeted first.

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Originally Posted by Kyani

I think taking a direct hatchet to SMN while ignoring the problems other classes have (drg auto-crit burst; ONE PUNCH MAN; scholar being hot garbage; drk being ???) is kind of strange.

I don't even think SMN was the most overpowered class in Feast (I think that's either MNK, WHM or PLD), so it's strange that they were targeted first.

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They mentioned that DRK and other adjustments are being made in 3.25. At the same time, none of what you said really detracts from the fact that summoners were still incredibly powerful compared to other range. Not to say that the other changes make any more sense (leaving sleep's duration untouched for example)

How is monk overpowered? Cause they have the ability to remove a buff from a healer job that would still fall far behind the other 2 heals even if that buff was not removable?

So, my input on how things are right now after these changes:

As a tank, the changes to medals haven't done much. By increasing the damage taken by all classes, you've made it easier to kill DPS/Healers. If you really want to limit the number of medals the tanks are picking up, just put a cap on it.

Regarding DRK... This job is really bad. Currently, DRK offers next to zero utility, which is even more important to tanks after the recent damage nerf. I'm not sure why you waited to make changes, but the only thing in my mind that can really justify this is that the changes involve core changes to the class that will also affect PVE. I hope this is the case because, being a true end game raiding DRK since it came out, I have to say the class is wonky.

I get it that they made changes to WM/GB to get more BRD/MCHs to use it more, but it's too much of a risk if they want ppl to get in close. It just going to make them a easier target imo, plus the latest changes for healer/caster it feels more of a waste if it's more difficult to interrupt w/o doing burst dmg. Even using it if a healer recovers, it felt worthless to use it against so it makes it want to go after a melee DPS more often on some matches i've played. Im just at a loss a bit playing as MCH cause I im not sure if I want to use GB throughout the match/s w/o taking a risk.

My winrate has actually dropped a lot since the new update. I heal AST and I went from a 67% winrate to 61.6%
I'm not sure what i'm doing wrong...

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Originally Posted by Vejjiegirl

My winrate has actually dropped a lot since the new update. I heal AST and I went from a 67% winrate to 61.6%
I'm not sure what i'm doing wrong...

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I think I can answer this, the games now require more tactic than before to win. Meaning, highest burst team will not always win thanks to players with "CC" being able to cast without being interrupted. From the few games I played this week, games were lost not because the other team had higher burst, but because they had better coordination, I notice it from my own team from time to time, many have learned not to wake up a sleeping healer when you want to bring an enempy player down.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Starting in patch 3.2, players in 8 on 8 matches will be afflicted by Culling Time at the following intervals:

*snip*
We believe this will result in increased KOs and discourage teams from playing defensively to protect a lead.

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Great, lets add more things to make bad players think they are good.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

• Damage received is less than 15% of max HP → Casting succeeds.
• Damage received is 15% or more of max HP → Casting is interrupted.
• Sleep/Stun/Silence → Casting is interrupted (no change).

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This sounds terrible and useless. Players can't decide to hit for 15% more of a players max HP. Give every player a dedicated PvP interrupt skill and call it a day.

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Originally Posted by Osmond

I get it that they made changes to WM/GB to get more BRD/MCHs to use it more, but it's too much of a risk if they want ppl to get in close. It just going to make them a easier target imo, plus the latest changes for healer/caster it feels more of a waste if it's more difficult to interrupt w/o doing burst dmg. Even using it if a healer recovers, it felt worthless to use it against so it makes it want to go after a melee DPS more often on some matches i've played. Im just at a loss a bit playing as MCH cause I im not sure if I want to use GB throughout the match/s w/o taking a risk.

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If no one is focusing me or I have ammo up its GB all the way. If no ammo and I get interrupted more than once it comes off for split shots only.

There is nothing more satisfying than a fully buffed Between the Eyes crit followed by a wildfire proc as they run away thinking they were safe.

4vs4? More like whatever vs whatever...

http://s16.postimg.org/aikge392d/4vs3_sofair.png

Not the first time it happened. The pic is from a few minutes into the match, but this was exactly how we started. No tank in sight. Not sure if the person left during the loading (how?) or dc-ed, but this is completely unfair. Unless the other 4-man team is completely retarded and afk, it's pointless.

Either extend the waiting times and find another player or throw everybody out. I'd rather try it with a full bad team than have to give in because the system is stupid....

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Originally Posted by Takaokami

Either extend the waiting times and find another player or throw everybody out.

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If I remember correctly, Blade and Soul's tag team (3v3) uses a system that if one or more players are offline before the match starts it throw both teams back to the lobby. This game could use a system like that.

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Originally Posted by Vejjiegirl

My winrate has actually dropped a lot since the new update. I heal AST and I went from a 67% winrate to 61.6%
I'm not sure what i'm doing wrong...

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I think the new update to medals only really affected AST. I touched on this in an earlier post, but by making all players take more damage, they basically made it harder for healers to keep *everyone* alive. This is balanced out for WHM since they can now get Cure II off and whatnot, and probably similarly affected SCH, but AST's toolkit revolved mostly around their instant heal.

This is how I'm understanding what's going on at least.

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Originally Posted by TriksteR

If I remember correctly, Blade and Soul's tag team (3v3) uses a system that if one or more players are offline before the match starts it throw both teams back to the lobby. This game could use a system like that.

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+1

This would be great for DC's before Commencement. I'd gladly go back to waiting for members than forfeit or attempt to win with a 3v4.

I'm not sure how to deal with Dc's or members leaving after duty commences, but that's on the devs, not us to figure out xD

Is it only me or the BLM's Fire and Blizzard 4 really useless in pvp? Long cast, gated by enochian, rarely to hit people who run.

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Originally Posted by Eul

Is it only me or the BLM's Fire and Blizzard 4 really useless in pvp? Long cast, gated by enochian, rarely to hit people who run.

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I kill people with fire IV a lot, it's not always easy to use it because of LoS but it's absolutely doable. And I see other BLMs do it so...

I would like to give some feedback after having played the Feast on multiples jobs;

MNK : Being able to remove all 3 stacks of Aetherflow with one attack is too much, especially for SCH, as it struggles enough already. I'm fine with Retrogradation and Wither to remove all 3 but since it's possible to spam One Ilm Punch or at least to use it regularly, it's too threatening for SCH and SMN to have a big part of their healing/dps so easily shut down. Please make One Ilm Punch remove only one stack of Aetherflow at a time.

SMN : After seeing the recent changes in action, Tri-Bind needs to be restored to 12 sec, this change made little sense. SMN needs a good CC skill since it's a very defenseless class.

I read that the matchmaking actually puts you with people with a lower rank to even things out...I sure hope this isn't true... I see too many people without pvp experience pop in, sure it's only preseason but it completely ruins the fun of pvp, as you want a challenge, not being crushed in 30 sec or crush the others in 30 sec. (Okay crushing people in 30 sec is fun, but not so fun when it happens to you). I reached 1 k points, failed to qualify for Silver rank and deranked to 800... Can't blame it all on others but it's probably a big part of why it happened. I wouldn't mind if the solo queue stays as is for ranking when seasons come out, but at least make 4 vs 4 premades mode count too, that way we can avoid some frustration.

So when the new ranking system for solo queue is comming as proposed?

Unranked Win 25 / loose 0
Bronze - win 25 / loose -7
Silver - win 25 / loose -15
Gold - win 25 / loose -20
Platinum - win 25 / loose -25?
Diamond - win 25 / loose -25?

The Revised Player Ranking!!!!!!


So say we break actions up into 3 categories; A column would be raw damage/ healing actions(Heavy Swing, Split Shot, Fire IV, Royal Authority etc.) B would be Defensive(Thrill of War, Hallowed Ground, Manawall) and C would be enfeeble, crowd control(Sleep, Full Swing, Head Graze) with each of these columns having a different variable attached to them. Now each time a player inputs those actions, it's recorded, so at the end of the match, that player, for ex. used 300 A, 140 B, and 90 C. Then take that data over a 100-1000 matches from multiple players in each role(Tank, melee, ranged, healer) still taking a win/loss factor as a smaller variable. Theoretically, depending on the class, theses numbers would increase over the course of the matches, and level off the closer you came to the 100-1000 match mark(let's call it the Iggy Curve ;D) and then this is where the win/loss ratio would become more of a defining factor, not at the beginning of how your rating is evaluated. Please point out any holes in this, or constructive critiques on how to improve it, but something like this would allow for a true individual player rating, and still allow new and vetted players alike to be queued together(saving queue times, showing new players how to pvp through example), and your rating wouldn't be hindered by something as silly as just whether it was a win or a loss.

rip frontline que 2h +

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Originally Posted by Lewtz

rip frontline que 2h +

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It was a fun run while that lasted. I miss my fireworks v_v. Even so I still havent and wont queue for frontlines anymore.

Improvements in the feast I'd like to see:

Solo 4v4 Rating : Pre rating matches -Before attaining a rating you do a series of matches to determine your starting place in the season. Based purely on W/L out of say 10 matches to decide where you start the season before you start getting rated.
Rating based on your team versus the other team. 4 Bronze vs 3 unranked and 1 Bronze should not be a huge rating loss for the Bronze with no rank.
Rewards based on server, If rewards are going to be so exclusive many people may opt out of the season as they know they'll never see the rewards. The rewards possibly may never even see their server. Some data centers have a huge PVP scene, some do not, a server wide reward system would function much better. Especially if this queue will be solo only relying partially on RNG to win.
PVP Rank 25 required to participate in Rated solo matches.

Premade 4v4 Rated: Not much is wrong with this, Rewards should be added, server based as well. Premade Diamond should give you a seed into a tournament that will give some form of reward as well to the top 1 /2/3 teams. Participation should be awarded with a Title or ring.
PvP Rank 25 required to participate in Rated team matches.

8v8: Not much to say about this mode, however "The Culling" now happens to quickly. The damage changes to heavy medal was enough, The culling should still happen a little later into the match, currently the culling happens not very long after both teams have finished preparation and begun to engage each other. Medical boxes are never used and should be changed in some way, perhaps the positioning in the lower ring is too far from the battle zone itself.

Frontlines Roulette > PVP roulette : Add Feast 8v8 as an option box noting it can only be run in roulette with a maximum of two players, Increase level cap of Secure and Slaughter to level 60, 150 sync.

Challenge log : Wolf Marks/1000 gil attained as well as PVP experience.

Balances :

Dark Knight : Tar Pit changed to > AoE Heavy 20%/AoE Slow 20%, Carnal Chill changed to > 10% Damage reduction/10% Spell/Skill speed reduction
Casting : Repose/Sleep: Duration 15 > 10 seconds
PVP Skills: malmsight and enliven changed, not sure how to change these skills in particular. Mana draw should only be on casting classes.
Scholar: PVP Skill added, Aetherwall, Buffs can not be dispelled from self for 5 seconds, 10 seconds with trait. 180 s recast / 120 second recast

I'm not done but I'm done for now.

I'm incline to think Dark Knight can be "fixed" with one simple addition; Minus Strike.

Essentially the reverse of Spirits Within or Essential Dignity; Lower the Dark Knights HP, the more damage it deals. That has some amazing synergy with other skills (Living Dead and Sole Survivor particularly) and plays perfectly to Dark Knights "strengths".

Potentially very over powered, but in order to achieve that Dark Knight needs to put themselves (and their healer, who'll need to cure bomb/blow cooldowns to keep the Dark Knight alive) in a very bad place, which I think balances it out. I'm actually perfectly fine with Dark Knights lack of utility, my main concern is that its poor survivability/self-healing has zero pay-off. Something like Minus Strike adds a pay-off to how Dark Knight currently is, it transforms the Job from a weak tank with no utility, to a weak tank with no utility that might very well kill you if backed into a corner...

By no means make it as powerful as Bravely Defaults version (because that would deal 14k damage...), but something that scales similar to Essential Dignity would be nice... I certainly wouldn't want to one hit anyone with Minus Strike, I'd just want it to augment my burst and stack with my existing skill set nicely; Ideally I'd want to drop into Walking Dead and have it facilitate enough burst to make a Sole Survivor + Mercy Stroke combo a thing of wonder... Used badly, Minus Strike would be a fart in the wind before you die, used well it could be amazing... The impact that could have on something like Feast would be much more interesting than just straight up giving the Job some utility, IMO...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

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This would have too much synergy with Heavy Medal + Living Dead + Bloodbath/Mercy/Sole and would lead to a situation where you only have the DRK get medals to debuff themselves, Pop LD at enough stacks then Pop Bloodbath > Use Minus Strike , Carve and Spit , Tar Pit, Carnal Chill, DA SE combo + Low Blow + Mercy Stroke, for large burst as well as large self heals. Also since Walking Dead can be cleansed with purify the detriment of Walking Dead killing you isn't exactly as harsh in PVP.

I wouldn't want to see an Inverse HP balance skill on a tank in this mode with Heavy Medal + Invulnerable cooldowns existing.

I really don't think it would be that powerful... I'd imagine something closer to a lone Fell Cleave, at which point it's something you can very easily heal through, and that doesn't even touch on how obvious a telegraph this kind of burst set up would be... It is something that would be very easy to just out right shut down...

Then there's the aftermath... Do you really want a Dark Knight carrying all the medals based off a 5 minute cooldown in Living Dead? So the Dark Knight could burst one party member down with a Minus Strike burst and get enough healing to Purify Walking Dead... They're still a goner after that... Their coup de grace is spent and you're back to having a clear disadvantage in your tank selection - which, lets not forget, it going to impact whether you even pick up any medals in the first place.

Honestly, if Warrior can have double Fell Cleave and plenty of utility/survivability to boot, Dark Knight can have its own inferior version... Dark Knight deserves the title of 3rd DPS far more than Warrior, and Minus Strike doesn't even really add that... Minus Strike would only really shine with Living Dead, that's the only situation you can sit on low HP and follow up with more burst to strike back. When Living Dead is on cooldown? Then it's just a last ditch heavy hitter (which, as with all last ditch moves in this game, will likely go on cooldown having done nothing) that can hopefully allow your team to get your medals back easily. You died using it, you can't follow it up with any additional burst... If you used it and didn't die? Either give that healer a commendation, or you certainly weren't at a HP threshold good enough to make the damage remotely noteworthy...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

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I would agree with you if the match times weren't so short. It makes say, taking a melee LB something you want to happen so you can minus strike.I just feel like it's not balanced enough with the way the system itself works. In a vacuum the ability would seem fine. But when you take into account mechanics like the culling, heavy medal, adrenaline crates, defense and offense crates, It just seems a bit imbalanced. Not to mention that inverse HP mechanics wouldn't work well with RNG healers. You could supposedly have a very strong skill, or you could minus strike right after a panic benediction,ED,lustrate.

It opens up a lot of options for DRK but I feel like the options it opens aren't fixing the problem DRK has. It's just giving it one more burst skill they can use once a match maybe, However with heavy medal /Culling/and crates that might be enough to make it imbalanced near the late game of an already short match length. Dark Knight has a problem in its lack of ability to harass, it lacks the ability to lockdown a target like the other two tanks have, It lacks the self sustain the over two tanks have. A skill like minus strike would just further highlight these problems while not fixing anything except making it a stronger DPS.

DRK needs more utility not another burst OGCD.

Minus strike would always be a coin flip skill with no real value added to the job itself except giving it a comeback ability that may or may not even work. It would suffer the same issues Walking Dead has in PVE content. Possibly very strong in a premade, absolutely terrible in RNG solo queue. Probably almost unusable sometimes and other times may win you the match.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

DRK needs more utility not another burst OGCD.

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I don't particularly want much utility on Dark Knight, I'd rather see it be fairly distinct from Paladin and Warrior in that regard. It's chase and interrupt ability were what had me enjoying the Job (prior to 3.22). Rather than another tank that can annoy people with some utility and is hard to kill, I'd rather have a tank that forgoes utility for DPS, and that you think twice about going in for the kill on - hence Minus Strike. OK Minus Strike alone probably wont solve that, but yeah... Play up the DPS and chase potential, rather than slapping some standard utility on it...

Now that I think about it, having Fetter Ward might be a nice way to play up the chase aspect... Minus Strike might also work better as a stance, rather than a direct attack... Sort of like ammunition/Sword Oath...