My man!Quote:
Originally Posted by Payadopa
Yeah, that's the forums in a nutshell. The loudest convinced others that there is only one way and when you challenge that view you get ostracized. lol It's not like some views aren't sound, mind. I'm just saying people can have very different viewpoints and therefore arrive at different conclusions. But that's not allowed here. Echo chamber and all that. But that's not a thing that bothers me.
What I find funny is, that so many people here make suggestions while screaming that the game will fail or whatever if it doesn't get implemented or something. Heck, it's not like I don't want some changes on [x], but you can't argue with success. And XIV is as successful as can be right now. Sure, discussions can get heated but in the end this is for feedback. Every voice and so on. I don't follow the doomsday cult.
Same here. I'm not here for the Likes.
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10-31-2021, 07:04 PMDrkdaysMy man!Quote:
Originally Posted by Payadopa
Same here. I'm not here for the Likes. -
10-31-2021, 07:09 PMSebazy
Apologies if I'm trying to back up my points with some substance to verify my claims. Let's be clear though, I'm not trying to chest pound. I'm trying to make it clear that I would rather play like a pure healer myself. The HPS rankings are pretty much a meme and always have been frankly, as they are the mark of someone who's just healing over their team mate rather than coordinating efficiently. Which is something I used to do to rather extreme levels.
And no, it's not a flawed argument by any stretch. Once you A) Understand and roughly remember how a fight goes & B) Have some confidence in your kit and abilities & C) Hit your first time in progression content where a significant amount of healer DPS is flat out required to clear (E8S is probably the clearest recent example of this, you don't have to go back to HW).
Your cast bars will look like this:
https://i.imgur.com/ZoCAiqT.png
The 'better' you are at memorising and optimising, the more extreme it gets. That image is from a run of mine where I got a decidedly meh 71%.
This isn't a minority or elitist thing by any stretch, go look any clear run in savage, all the healer uploads look as skewed as each other.
Here's the most first upload at the top of the list when I clicked there myself:
https://i.imgur.com/xflFWdW.png
The simple fact is that the healing in this game is fundamentally flawed and needs a total rethink. That's not going to happen at this stage, at least not whilst Yoshida is still in charge. Adding some variance to what we can do in all the downtime is the path of least resistance towards at least putting some kind of a bandaid over the issue for now.
Do you realise how flawed this argument is? To repeat a minor point I made above. Many Savage turns are *NOT* clearable without healer DPS. And no, this isn't a thing exclusive to Gordias or whatever. Even as recently as E8S. If your healers didn't contribute significant damage, you didn't beat enrage even with world class DPS players. It's as simple as this.Quote:
and entitled (you're definitely a healer, not a dps, read the job description.)
Please understand that there is a huge disconnect between Yoshida, the class design team and the battle design team and it is nothing new. This has been a strange issue pretty much since the release of Stormblood.
If you really can't see that there's a fundamental issue with healing in this game. Perhaps you'd consider telling me what other class has gameplay that is as heavily skewed towards a single button in end game play? -
10-31-2021, 07:28 PMSebazy
Just to further backup the E8S point:
https://i.imgur.com/hijvbxi.png?1
That's the lowest healer DPS run recorded. The overall damage done by the DPS and Tanks was very solid, but despite that the healers still needed to do a combined 6.5k+ dps ontop and they barely scraped by enrage. -
10-31-2021, 07:33 PMDrkdays
There's that word again. Stop the segregation implied by the term Sylphie. We're all healers here.
Whether or not we've cleared savage. Whether or not we are fine with the current class build. Whether or not we agree with you. Slinging insults is how you lose a debate. How can I care about or consider anything you post if you start with insults? -
10-31-2021, 07:44 PMSebazyThe echo chamber thing is a fair opinion and I legitimately respect that. I've gone against the grain too at various points and yes, it's all too easy to get pounced on over stupid details, often missing the bigger picture at play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payadopa
However!
Please remember that the whole 'healers only heal' debate is as old as the game itself and it's always followed a very clear and distinct pattern without fail.
You'll get people who main other roles with healers being 'a bit on the side' wondering what we are going on about. It seems fine to them. Sometimes it's just newer players who are on their first tier or two and are still in the honeymoon period. But either way, in all my years on these boards, I've seen quite literally one single healer DPS decryer who actually backed up their opinions and stance with any kind of fact. They were around years ago and the ultimate irony of it all is after Stormblood, they pretty much ended up in the same jaded angry camp as all of us anyway :rolleyes:
Again, don't take me decrying a lack of experience as me snubbing you. I'm legitimate jealous of it and I wish I could go back to the days of Coil and HW when raid healing was still an evolving entity and new turns genuinely needed new approaches.
Understand that healing has been stuck in largely the same formula since Creator 5 full years ago whilst I'd argue that our kits have only changed for the worse.
Yes XIV is successful at the moment, there's no denying that. But it's success is largely coming at the expense of it's competition (or lack thereof) in the MMO space right now. You cannot look at those healer cast charts above and tell me that that is compelling gameplay? -
10-31-2021, 07:48 PMSebazyI called myself it. It's literally a core story point in the healer questline. But for the sake of trying to keep this debate going. Sure I'll change it to Pure Healer. Could you go back and comment on the rest of my points now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkdays
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10-31-2021, 08:03 PMIronthorneYou're constantly calling people entitled and vain for disagreeing with you. You're constantly using strawmans to twist people's words. You've brought nothing to the table, no evidence, no argument. Don't complain about insults when you're the one who has been slinging mud.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkdays
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10-31-2021, 08:07 PMDrkdaysI made my comments. I'm not in the habit if calling others wrong. You say you contribute a lot of dps as a healer. I'm not arguing with that. I'm arguing with the necessity for change. Your own charts seem to indicate that the dps is in a fine place for healers and any change would be essentially cosmetic to fight extreme repetition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkdays
See? I really do understand English. The op, however, wants to argue that healers dpsing should be of greater emphasis than it currently is or else it somehow implies that healers must be too thickskulled to do more.
But I disagree. My contention is that healers operate at all levels of proficiency and that SE MUST account for that and that's how I like it. Adding more options inevitably becomes requiring more from players, thus raising the required skill level in all content, a downward spiral.
That's not something I want to see. -
10-31-2021, 08:21 PMDJLovely
To put into perspective using some data
Tank casts
Dps casts
Healer casts
(incase the pic dont show https://imgur.com/6QMgRM0 tank, https://imgur.com/M6zHKzt dps, https://imgur.com/9uCoDEl healer)
The tank and dps players got more options and abilities to play with so why do healers not get the same treatment. The expansion looks more like a dlc for current healers honestly. Worst if you play white mage. -
10-31-2021, 08:23 PMGrimGaleWe agree, then, there is extreme repetition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkdays
What would be a non-cosmetic change to fight exteme repetition?