Yoshida on "carrying" other people

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Regardless the focus on larger scale is demotivational. Especially at 24 players you don't really feel the effect of your own performance. It's only in smaller scale content where you actually feel like you're making a difference, and without that feeling there's not much motivation to play well.

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Like I said, I think the small scale contents are served by trials and raids. I know people want light party or even smaller-scale contents, but I think 8 is not that much bigger, and the more contents that make use of 8-player parties, the more useful an 8-player static becomes.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Like I said, I think the small scale contents are served by trials and raids. I know people want light party or even smaller-scale contents, but I think 8 is not that much bigger, and the more contents that make use of 8-player parties, the more useful an 8-player static becomes.

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An 8 player static is very inconvenient, and in an 8 player PuG you're not really positioned to make a real difference either. 4 is the ideal for this game. WoW has 5 player Mythics and legit solo challenges, which give you a real reason to become as proficient as possible even if you're not raiding with a static. These are the kinds of things that motivate improvement within the casual community, and FFXIV severely lacks them.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Like I said, I think the small scale contents are served by trials and raids. I know people want light party or even smaller-scale contents, but I think 8 is not that much bigger, and the more contents that make use of 8-player parties, the more useful an 8-player static becomes.

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Not really interested in your whole conversation but...

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Originally Posted by linayar

I know people want light party or even smaller-scale contents, but I think 8 is not that much bigger

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2x larger than a light party, 4x larger than a duo.

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Originally Posted by linayar

not that much bigger

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

An 8 player static is very inconvenient, and in an 8 player PuG you're not really positioned to make a real difference either. 4 is the ideal for this game. WoW has 5 player Mythics and legit solo challenges, which give you a real reason to become as proficient as possible even if you're not raiding with a static. These are the kinds of things that motivate improvement within the casual community, and FFXIV severely lacks them.

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It's a good size that can give room to a wide range of mechanics for the party to handle. Only one tank means no tank swap mechanic.

WoW has 5-player Mythics, but they also have 10-30 player LFR/Normal/Heroic and 20-player Mythics.

And since Yoshida is hesitant on 4-player difficult contents, it means either 8-player or 24+ player contents.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Not really interested in your whole conversation but...

2x larger than a light party, 4x larger than a duo.

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Yes, not that much bigger: 4 more players than a light party, 6 more players than a duo. When the scale is small, 2x or 3x is still small.

I don't really like how 24+ player content dies in time. Before the 5.x relic was a thing, the Stormblood 24mans were becoming very rare pops.

If we're going to get additional mid-tier content, perhaps revisiting the Alliance Raid concept with 12 players (3 teams of 4) would be a pretty cool option. I'd be fine with just repurposing the existing alliance raids for this scenario.

I don't think 40+ player fights are a good idea at all, though; CLL almost died before DR even came out, and everything in Bozja risks going goodbye the instant an alternative shows itself in 6.0.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Well, that's the thing. "Carrying," like other words, are subjectively used. Regardless of whether it's because people are not as skilled or as knowledgeable of the fight or any other reason, the result is the same: that some people will have to compensate for others.

If you want to use another word for it, feel free.

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It's not a simple semantic difference - you are deliberately using a negatively charged term and trying to twist it into fitting something Yoshida said that doesn't have anything to do with it. Simply stating the fact that when you're 1/24 of the people your personal responsibility is lower than when you're 1/4 or 1/8 doesn't mean anyone has to or is intended to "carry" anyone else, it just means you're a smaller part of the equation. There are tons of people who feel less pressure in joining an alliance raid, even if they perform amazingly and aren't being carried in the slightest (hence the use of "approachable" in the Q/A and not "easier").

Furthermore, people making mistakes doesn't mean they're being carried. You can easily have a healer in an alliance raid keeping everyone alive and doing more damage than other players miss a cue and die, then almost instantly be raised by someone else and continue "topping the charts" so to speak. If that same healer makes the same mistake in a light party then it's probably going to be a wipe. They're not being carried in either case; the only difference is that they have 1/6 the amount of personal responsibility.

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If you read again what I said, I'm making the connection with what he is saying here with what he's said in the past.

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And I'm saying that your connection is bunk. If anything, saying that alliance raids are more approachable than savage raids because of the difference in the number of players is the exact opposite of saying it's hard to make difficult content for lower numbers of people - the lower personal responsibility would mean it's easier to make the content harder because it's easier to recover from mistakes.

I don't think you're a troll or anything, because your responses seem to be in earnest, but it looks a lot like you just wanted to have a discussion on "carrying" and found a recent quote you thought you could somehow twist to fit that discussion. I, and several other people, are pointing out that they are completely different things

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

It's not a simple semantic difference - you are deliberately using a negatively charged term and trying to twist it into fitting something Yoshida said that doesn't have anything to do with it. Simply stating the fact that when you're 1/24 of the people your personal responsibility is lower than when you're 1/4 or 1/8 doesn't mean anyone has to or is intended to "carry" anyone else, it just means you're a smaller part of the equation. There are tons of people who feel less pressure in joining an alliance raid, even if they perform amazingly and aren't being carried in the slightest (hence the use of "approachable" in the Q/A and not "easier").

Furthermore, people making mistakes doesn't mean they're being carried. You can easily have a healer in an alliance raid keeping everyone alive and doing more damage than other players miss a cue and die, then almost instantly be raised by someone else and continue "topping the charts" so to speak. If that same healer makes the same mistake in a light party then it's probably going to be a wipe. They're not being carried in either case; the only difference is that they have 1/6 the amount of personal responsibility.

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The point is that the content is designed in such a way that players are able to help other players in a group so that the entire party doesn't have to suffer because of some people's mistake.

This, in my opinion, is a good thing. However, the result of that design is that there is not much individual player responsibility, which when taken to some extreme, end up in people complaining about having to carry others. Be that as it may, that is still within the design scope of the content where not every player has to perform well in order for the party to succeed.

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And I'm saying that your connection is bunk. If anything, saying that alliance raids are more approachable than savage raids because of the difference in the number of players is the exact opposite of saying it's hard to make difficult content for lower numbers of people - the lower personal responsibility would mean it's easier to make the content harder because it's easier to recover from mistakes.

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The connection is valid because of Yoshida's previous comment on the matter:

https://mogtalk.org/2021/05/07/inter...naoki-yoshida/

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I think the chances of doing large-scale, challenging content is greater than creating high-difficulty content meant for smaller groups. It’s not that we are unable to create high-difficulty content for small groups, but currently I am a bit more hesitant with that direction overall.

In the case of a four-player high-difficulty dungeon, there is much less room for players to work with when it comes to party deaths or mistakes. If even a single party member is incapacitated or makes a mistake, it will invariably lead to a wipe, with not much leeway to save the run or come up with a creative solution. Another major reason is because our community continues to grow—naturally this is bringing in many casual players, and I believe that when looking at the bigger pictures, large-scale content will be easier for all players to get into.

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I don't think you're a troll or anything, because your responses seem to be in earnest, but it looks a lot like you just wanted to have a discussion on "carrying" and found a recent quote you thought you could somehow twist to fit that discussion. I, and several other people, are pointing out that they are completely different things

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They are not completely different as can be seen by both of Yoshida's answers to two different interviews. And I am pointing it out because certain recent threads have complained about having to carry others in duties. This is simply giving a perspective on how the content enables that.

Well, that is a bit of a letdown. I used to champion savage dungeons, but over the years I realized HoH and Deep Dungeon were more experimental in nature. Thing is you need reliable people to do that content. Matchmaking will get you nowhere.
Seems it's time I just accept that I'm not part of the core audience anymore. My raiding days are behind me, I don't have excess hours a night to devote to a static or content like Savage anymore.

If it's any consolation, Zadnor introduced gear that is five item levels below current max. Perhaps 24 man raids should drop gear that's five item levels below current max cap.

The majority of new players quit when they see the game is piss easy, the *only endgame matters* meme only turn new players away.

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Originally Posted by Tracewood

Perhaps 24 man raids should drop gear that's five item levels below current max cap.

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I believe they drop the same as unaugmented tomestone, which should be 10 levels below the augmented version, which should be at the max for gears.