Maybe RDM need....

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Originally Posted by Capn_Goggles

I think they were trying ask why I thought it was reasonably powerful and not overpowered. You're right though, BLM is definitely in the best spot it has ever been in, partially because of the 1% role buff, but mostly because it actually brings enough personal DPS to justify bringing it over another job that just buffs everyone. Also, any BLM player worth their salt will tell you that the job has been anything BUT babied, what you're seeing is basically the result of 3 whole expansions' worth of small but good QoL changes finally coming together, but it took a VERY long and painful time for it to get to this point.

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I think the only reason the gap is so jarring is because everything else was so evenly tuned.

Monk, Dragoon, and Black Mage seem so raucously out of line because everyone else is so finely on the line. I don't think that's an unfair statement, but if it was a gradient leading up like it was, it probably wouldn't be so apocalypse inspiring.

To be honest though, the enhanced Enochian trait this time around probably didn't need to happen.

Melee before 5.08 were quite gradient:
https://i.imgur.com/pqvmn7F.png
And SE apparently felt it needed to be fixed asap

This, however, was working as intended:
https://i.imgur.com/E6DlMFU.png
^_^

I'm really trying to wrap my brain around certain decisions SE has made, here are some interpretations.

SE is trying to keep the composition of 2 melee, 1 caster, 1 Ranged. They are doing this by incentivizing 3/4 of the dps to be 1 of each role. They are putting Melee above the rest to ensure their spot since the 2nd melee won't have the role bonus to hold as leverage [therefore it needs to be the clearest choice in dps.] The role bonus keeps lower dps classes relevant [or should] but doesn't allow multiple to stack.

RDM/SMN aren't getting punished with low dps, so much as BLM is being buffed to keep it relevant [fundamentally the same, but the idea is that smn/rdm aren't being punished by all the other roles not having raise, just BLM not having raise.] This puts BLM at Melee level damage in this 2 m, 1c, 1r comp, while still receiving the full effect of the role bonus, where the 2 melee will split it.

It really just comes down to if SE can let go of a standard comp of 2 melee. If SMN(LIKELY)/RDM gets closer to melee level dps they could remove a melee from the equation (Close enough in damage that it would be fairly close to the damage of 2 melee now. )

RDM Embolden not affecting BLM, contributing much lower damage than SMN (come 5.1) and BLM will ensure that SMN/BLM will be the only combination able to compete with the 2 melee standard.

Just some thoughts i've been thinking about.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

I'm really trying to wrap my brain around certain decisions SE has made, here are some interpretations.

SE is trying to keep the composition of 2 melee, 1 caster, 1 Ranged. They are doing this by incentivizing 3/4 of the dps to be 1 of each role. They are putting Melee above the rest to ensure their spot since the 2nd melee won't have the role bonus to hold as leverage [therefore it needs to be the clearest choice in dps.] The role bonus keeps lower dps classes relevant [or should] but doesn't allow multiple to stack.

RDM/SMN aren't getting punished with low dps, so much as BLM is being buffed to keep it relevant [fundamentally the same, but the idea is that smn/rdm aren't being punished by all the other roles not having raise, just BLM not having raise.] This puts BLM at Melee level damage in this 2 m, 1c, 1r comp, while still receiving the full effect of the role bonus, where the 2 melee will split it.

It really just comes down to if SE can let go of a standard comp of 2 melee. If SMN(LIKELY)/RDM gets closer to melee level dps they could remove a melee from the equation (Close enough in damage that it would be fairly close to the damage of 2 melee now. )

RDM Embolden not affecting BLM, contributing much lower damage than SMN (come 5.1) and BLM will ensure that SMN/BLM will be the only combination able to complete with the 2 melee standard.

Just some thoughts i've been thinking about.

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I don't see any reason why square should be actively pushing a 2 melee meta comp. It makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

I don't see any reason why square should be actively pushing a 2 melee meta comp. It makes no sense.

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especially as melee right now only make up 40% of dps classes, actively pushing for 40% of classes to take 50% of the slots would be the epitome of bad design.

Mind you 4 dps slots obviously cant be evenly split between 3 roles, which is why personally i think the role bonus of caster/phys ranged should be consolidated, than you could balance around 2/2 (doesnt matter if caster/phys or 2 phys/caster) which would match up a lot better in the long term especially if we assume the next dps to be a melee, with 3/1 compositions being in the realm of "not ideal but probably workable if you are good enough" , heck give melee back their ranged skills, even buff them so they can keep 80% of their damage while not on the boss just so the whole "but brd/mch/dnc can attack all the time) discussion can be put to rest

I also do not know why people hold on to the same excuse SE uses in that it is because of "Utility", some seem to think RM Utility is godly or something... reality it is not that great at all.
RM atm is weak AF, just ever so slightly over DNC perhaps. Said it numerous times but they are treating it like they did in Stormblood, all other jobs seen multiple changes before RM even seen 1.
If it goes that route or if they do not touch it at all it may as well go in the Blu Mage bin. I mean they will eventually do tweaks to it i imagine but is still frustrating.


Smn could at least rejoice knowing that you will more then likely be buffed to be on par with or even surpass blm.. as per usual

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

Trying to help RDM here. Sorry if I upset you. But if RDM start doing good damage+have good damage utility+verrise then you can bet that they could become meta too which inviting disagreement from everyone else.

My intention is to have RDM keep Verrise/heal and still have option to do good damage. Have Verrise/heal when learning mechanic, switch to more dps when aim to beat the enrage. But if anyone have a better idea it is very welcome.

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Basically people aren't asking for it to be competitive, not have black mage damage. Right now there is no reason to bring one over anything else. Ver-cure is only for solo content so forget about that, ver- raise is so rare you'll ever need it over a healer, if you do use it your dps will be terrible, and their raid buff only buffs one type of damage and goes down in power.

No one wants them for their dps, which isn't good enough and no one wants them for their utility either right now.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

To be honest though, the enhanced Enochian trait this time around probably didn't need to happen.

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Well, this is how it would look without it:

https://i.imgur.com/Bcs0Epy.jpg

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Originally Posted by Capn_Goggles

Well, this is how it would look without it:

https://i.imgur.com/Bcs0Epy.jpg

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At least the other ranged would stop whining about us in particular.

Silence is music to my ears.

Also, Aiken, that's how you represent graphs - With the whole graph, not the tail end of it.

Interestingly, RDM actually holds a higher absolute maximum parse on Voidwalker Savage on FF logs than MCH or BRD. It is very close behind summoner in absolute maximum potential.

In addition, the statistical maximum is slightly higher then both MCH and BRD and is much much higher than the upper quartile value for the job.

https://i.gyazo.com/5e1a50ad6d01e518...ef31f13c44.png

This indicates to me that a large majority of RDM players play below the maximum potential of RDM. I would put this down to the fact that the majority of fights end up with deaths and wipes that result in RDM sacrificing personal DPS to raise. The damage of RDM should be balanced to an ideal situation where no raise is necessary. If they were able to match the damage of other utility jobs while raising, and also bringing embolden, RDM would be overpowered. This is why RDM always looks underpowered on logs.

I am not sure RDM needs a buff in this respect. BRD, MCH and RDM all feel disadvantaged right now simply because both NIN and DRG are overtuned. Since the other two melee, SAM and MNK, are both personal-dps classes (and therefore should be doing more damage than utility jobs), 5.08 melee are currently overtuned. The current insanely overpowered state of NIN is very likely to change in 5.1... leaving the major problem-child as DRG.

When NIN comes back down, DRG could use a nerf and MCH could use a buff (given that it has no DPS-based utility). SAM could also use a little extra love to put it on par with BLM and MNK but it is not far behind, numerically.