Tanks using ilv270 STR acessories

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so are jap players complaining about aggro too?
because it's a stupid reason
why not just say outright we want more damage
or that we want to feel like we're contributing to group and not just taking hits
etc etc
and not just use aggro as a scapegoat because we don't want to use the aggro combo
I'd expect Yoshida to just tell us to use aggro combo and it'll be fine

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Some people just don't understand. The thing is, when optimized, even now tanks can still pretty good DPS. I never hit near that ceiling so that's not my concern at all. My concern is actually about aggro in the future (We do have Shirk and Diversion and Lucid and whatnot, but I don't expect others to use them and Ican't force them either). Let's hypothetically say SE removes everything except the aggro combo, and buffs the aggro combo potency so that tanks can do DPS on par with actual DPS. I would still be very unhappy, because it's not really about the DPS. If Yoshida's answer is just "use the aggro combo" I will literally stop playing tanks. That's not a threat or anything. That's just what I will do as a player because it won't be fun.

And if it's such a stupid reason, why are JP players saying the same exact thing?

From Google Translate because I am too lazy to translate:

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I think that it is an interpretation that I want a hate acquisition power proportional to the attack power of DPS, not to hit the DPS's attack power. . .
I think that it is understandable that the difference between DPS's damage and tank's damage caused by the future update will be increasing steadily as it is the current system in which the damage amount is the hate acquisition amount as it is, so I think that the job as a tank is neat In order to do, it is impossible even if it will be impossible to hold in future if you increase extension damage by the same ratio, or increase subparameters such as hostile + and add it to the accessory.

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I do not agree with you on one thing: DPS should use all their tools, no excuses. Physical damage tank buster incoming? Use feint!

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Originally Posted by Driavna

I do not agree with you on one thing: DPS should use all their tools, no excuses. Physical damage tank buster incoming? Use feint!

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"Should" being the word here. DPS should do a lot of things, but many don't. I never say they shouldn't do so; I merely said I do not expect them to do so. It's like expecting DPS not to stand in AoEs.

You gutted my main job and made it from the hardest tank to a 1-2-3 idiot mode with no ogcds? Cool, thats fine.

Then you take away my ability to deal respectable damage while wearing GEAR FOR MY JOB. Get some competent designers please, the state of tanks in 4.0 is disgusting. I clear susano SSS with one minute left with slaying accessories and 15s left with 320 lakshimi fending accessories. Holy shit.

did Lakshmi-Ex as DRK OT, on first run i went full VIT access, was fine, on second run i swapped to 270STR i gained around 500-550dps Healers didn't notice a change in the way they healed me... but the DPS jump is worth it, you only have to care about the big cleave as OT and it's easy to mitigate it with the lv70 shield/CD...

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Originally Posted by Noza

did Lakshmi-Ex as DRK OT

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What about MT ?

The discussion surrounding STR accessories isn't really about enmity. You can comfortably hold aggro without them. While it is true that the current system will result in a widening gap between tank and dps enmity with each tier of gear, enmity is more forgiving than it has ever been. Not only have a number of the enmity modifiers been increased, but tools like Shirk really simplify the process. And that's kind of the point - enmity management is an artificial system that's shoehorned in to make everything work. It only exists because game designers need to create a discrepancy between tank dps and direct damage dealers, so that you can't run 6 tank 2 healer groups and gain extra survivability for no trade-off in damage output.

I'm not really sure why there's so much ongoing resistance to the idea of tanks doing respectable damage. It doesn't force any gameplay changes, and you can still play however you want. It just means that tank contributions are valued. It's not particularly difficult to implement, either. Just make the accessories VIT + STR, with a slightly lower level of STR than the slaying ones. Most people wouldn't have even touched the i270 accessories if the newer ones offered even the pretence of stat progression.

The reason why the concept of STR tanking upsets people is because it translates differences in skill into performance differences. There are many factors involved. You need to be able to tank the fight with less HP, which involves understanding damage thresholds and mitigation. Your cotank needs to swap in a timely fashion. Your healers need to understand fight timings well. It's not particularly hard, and the effort remains the same, but the margin for error becomes smaller. In a way, it's like clearing a fight at a lower ilvl, and being rewarded with extra dps for doing it correctly. The problem is that not every group can replicate this, and the instant someone else starts clearing this way, you feel compelled to keep up. If nobody else could do it, you can't feel bad about not doing it yourself.

It's not about strength tanks vs. non-strength tanks, though. It's about the fact that, when you pick up your sword/axe/spiked bat and go to tank the boss, you want to feel like you're helping out. You know those 1% clutch clears where the only player left standing is the tank, and they pop their invincibility move and finish off the last bit of the boss' hp? Those only happen because you have tanks who contribute a meaningful level of dps. It's fun for the player, good for the team, and more epic for people watching. At its core, this strength accessory debate is important because it draws attention to a significant problem that needs to be addressed. It's actually in everyone's interests to see this resolved in a way that allows tanks to have respectable damage scaling with gear.

I feel this would be "ok" within a static, like fights were OT only helps soak damage like in Noza's example. Haven't tanked that much yet but is it really that hard to hold hate as a tank now that you would require the extra damage to hold a boss as an mt? I am a bit undecided on this one, i did enjoy the str acc "take" on tanking, where you had to mix and match based on what the encounter could dish out, but again those were examples in which you had a static. If you are doing it cuz all the cool kids are doing it, without having an actual solid grasp on your tank jobs mitigation "capacities" and just stressing the healers though, it could be 1000 more dps and I would still say its not worth it. There is a difference between doing things to help with cutting edge content within their respective competitive communities, as groups, and being an a-hole that wants to play at being leet at the expense of your healers.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I'm not really sure why there's so much ongoing resistance to the idea of tanks doing respectable damage. It doesn't force any gameplay changes, and you can still play however you want.

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For me, that's exactly the reason. In the STR vs VIT debate, "respectable damage" is not achieved through skill and gameplay understanding, it's achieved through stuff. If I have full mastery over a damage rotation, I don't want any average joe doing more than me with a lower ilvl just because they have different gear. Basically, it's akin to the rant about Diadem weapon, where no skill could ever compensate for the gap in stats.

And I still don't understand how tanks could not feel like "they're helping out" when, without them, the team would be wiped in mere seconds...which is basically what happens when a STR tank is killed because he miscalculated how much max HP he needed.

We are currently at 0.6 AP~ with full str VI melds at i314. Comparing to the previously 0.8AP~ from 3.5 (need more maths, im lazy).

We are so gimped that I don't understand the logic on the sudden change of str being primary again. If they truly want to kill tanks' dps, they should do something about enmity first.

Else gtfo. Quit all you want, rant all you want because as long as SE doesn't do anything to the i270 slayings, they just want us to use it. Period.