DPS classes numbers and ranking posted on reddit

Using the provided "data"

Samurai
Ninja
Summoner
Bard

Total: 17,000

vs

Dragoon
Monk
Machinist
Red Mage

Total: 16200

This doesn't account for any class synergy that may occur. (For example, the Machinist gets the Dragoon bonus, while the party gets the Trick Attack bonus from Ninja)

16200 / 17000 = ~.95

So long as the 'low ball' value can still clear content, then this is a meaningless discussion.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Not sure where you're getting this from...

Compare the role actions of MCH and BRD:
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/machinist/
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/bard/

They're identical.

Dismantle lowers a target's damage done by 10% for a whopping 5 seconds. As for a damage buff, I'm not sure what you mean. Hotshot only increases the damage done by the MCH, not the damage taken by the target.

So yeah, the only thing MCH has over BRD is dismantle, as far as I can tell.

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MCH gets a 5% vuln debuff that goes on boss the raid benifits from hypercharge. It may be stronger than Foe req considering how fast our mp drains atm.

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Originally Posted by KaiSunstrider

Sure. The point still remains that Brd and Mch are the only classes that dont bring their own resistance/damage debuffs. Meaning that without considering any party wide buffs cds, both will do more damage just by being on a target with a DRG doing his thing than by themselves. Nin used to be this way with a warrior but now that the SF combo applies slashing, its no longer a "buff" for nins to be in a group with a warrior vs without.

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I'm not sure what point you're trying to make but regardless the point is the difference between DRG and MNK/NIN let alone SAM is not going to be made up with piercing alone. Nor is dragon sight or Litany gonna make up the difference. Dragoon who has 3 offensive support abilitiees still provides less than the other 2 dps with 1 offensive support ability and still less than the dps that provides raw dps due to how low the personal damage of brd and mch are right now (and i'm talking about how disembowel affects them, so their utility doesn't apply here just their damage).

Maybe if you had both MCH and BRD in a single party with a DRG it might add up all things considered but who would run something like that when they could run MNK/NIN/CASTER (who are all strong atm) and BRD? BRD gains so little from a 5% disembowel that it isn't even a significant consideration like it used to be and MCH is in a tough spot right now period.

Looks like they were so fed up with the old meta they made it dog doodoo.

I check yesterday some youtube videos where players have test same encounter and managed get 4120 with bard, 4470 with monk and 4450 red mage etc. Maybe you should just wait savage content because these numbers not really tell anything.

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

BRD gains so little from a 5% disembowel that it isn't even a significant consideration like it used

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It's not just disembowel. The majority of our damage comes from our song procs which is heavily crit based RNG. Chain strategem plus litany snap shotted for 45 seconds is an incredible boost for bards (pitch perfect and blood letter spam) on top of the natural damage gains that classes get from having higher crit. Dragoon bard synergy is probably just as strong if not stronger than in 3.0 even with the nerf to disembowel. At least from the bards standpoint. The personal dps contribution of DRG overall is still a relevant point of argument though. The best thing for the discussion would be for me to sit on a dummy with our SAM for a while and then with our DRG to see exactly what gains I receive over an allotted amount of time.

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Originally Posted by KaiSunstrider

MCH gets a 5% vuln debuff that goes on boss the raid benifits from hypercharge. It may be stronger than Foe req considering how fast our mp drains atm.

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http://puu.sh/wuIdr/3d3fea6f91.jpg

Like BRD don't buff Crit 2% for the entire duration of the fight. also 15% more Direct hit, on top of foes being up for 21s every 150s. Along with other defensive utility options and more damage? Naw. BRD has 0 defense for why MCH is so weak.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

http://puu.sh/wuIdr/3d3fea6f91.jpg

Like BRD don't buff Crit 2% for the entire duration of the fight. also 15% more Direct hit, on top of foes being up for 21s every 150s. Along with other defensive utility options and more damage? Naw. BRD has 0 defense for why MCH is so weak.

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I wasn't arguing against how strong BRD utility was vs. MCH. The OP just said he didnt know of any party at all that MCH had access to. MCH 100% need a buff.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

BRD has 0 defense for why MCH is so weak.

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Brd does not rely on technology ;p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KaiSunstrider

MCH gets a 5% vuln debuff that goes on boss the raid benifits from hypercharge. It may be stronger than Foe req considering how fast our mp drains atm.

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Ah, okay. I see that now: it was under the "hypercharge effect" descriptor for the Bishop.

5% for 10 seconds just doesn't hold a candle to what BRDs can lay down, though...

MCH also has an extremely punishing rotation where you're going to be losing a massive chunk of your DPS if you screw up and overheat by accident. Not sure how BRD's rotation is, though.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

5% for 10 seconds

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The debuff is applied each time the turret hits, if applied on a single target with the rook it can last about 30 seconds actually.