Why are DPS so upset about tanks coming close to their DPS?

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Originally Posted by Dement

In the meta where DPS is king and quicker fights are always strived towards, there is never going to be a mass dropping of all DPS roles in favor of tanks that do less damage. On the other hand, if DPS were given the ability to tank almost as well as the tanks, there would indeed be a mass dropping of tanks in favor of filling those spots with DPS. The amount of damage you do trumps survivability when all you have to do is be just good enough to stay alive.

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Ladon never suggested that dropping DPS from parties would become the new meta. She was saying that the mere fact that it is possible to completely ditch DPS Jobs and still win all but 2 encounters that are presently "current" is a sure sign that something is seriously wrong with the Trinity.

In a Trinity based game, every role should be necessary for every piece of party-based content. Clearly, this is not the case with FFXIV.

While this game does use the trinity system it is also using the Job system and the fights are tuned so that player can expand beyond the extremely limited trinity roles into their full job potential. This also makes teams more dynamic. The "strict role" idealism not only is a hindrance to your progression in this game, but also the game is intentionally designed to operate beyond the minimalist confines of strict roles.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

While this game does use the trinity system it is also using the Job system and the fights are tuned so that player can expand beyond the extremely limited trinity roles into their full job potential. This also makes teams more dynamic. The "strict role" idealism not only is a hindrance to your progression in this game, but also the game is intentionally designed to operate beyond the minimalist confines of strict roles.

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We're using a Job System... which is just another way to say "Character Class"... of which all Jobs are specifically assigned a Trinity Role. In fact, Jobs funnel people into their assigned roles even more than Classes do. Wherever did you get the idea that they somehow conflict?

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Originally Posted by Donjo

Ladon never suggested that dropping DPS from parties would become the new meta. She was saying that the mere fact that it is possible to completely ditch DPS Jobs and still win all but 2 encounters that are presently "current" is a sure sign that something is seriously wrong with the Trinity.

In a Trinity based game, every role should be necessary for every piece of party-based content. Clearly, this is not the case with FFXIV.

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Every role is absolutely necessary for every piece of party-based content while that content is current. Ladon's posts talk about overgearing which is the only time that dropping DPS becomes feasible but still the question remains why drop the DPS?

If no one is dropping DPS in this new meta, then I don't really see what the problem is. The trinity still exists, tanks still tank, DPS still DPS, and healers still heal. The only difference is that tanks are able to output more damage as an OT role and maybe a MT role (once they overgear the content), however, that damage is still no where near the same level that an actual equally geared/skilled DPS is going to output.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

That is the real situation that is coming down the line here very soon where fully functional party compositions are going to start appearing without a single DPS class in them as ilevels continue to climb. And then we have a completely broken game on our hands that is just going to power creep to ridiculous levels to try and fix because people are so fearful of nerfs to actually properly fix the game.

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Also, I would say that dropping DPS from parties was definitely stated as becoming the new meta.

NOTE: didnt read last ten pages

There are 2 things that happen when a group over gears a fight:

1. You bring in 7 tanks and 1 healer for lulz (mostly done with statics and what not.)

2. You bring 1 tank 5 DPS and 1 healer. This is what happens most of the time.

a good DPS is still 400-500 DPS above a tank with equal gear and skill. This is in full offense.

now if we look at this from a percentage stand-point you will see that we are in fact not coming close to a DPS's numbers

For the sake of this comparison i will be using the top DPS job and the top Tank job.

For 2.55:
MNK- 600+ DPS
WAR- 450+ DPS

Percent difference: DPS did 33% more damage than the highest DPS tank.

3.05
DRG- ~1400 (thats being a little generous)
WAR- ~1100

DPS still do 27% more than a tank

This is with tanks getting more DPS capability and the fact that we are in the beginning of the expansion. When gear level and gets higher the gap will widen. I think that when we get to ilvl 220-230 we will be back to the point where DPS will be 33% better at DPS than a tank will be. remember this in a perfect scenario as soon as a tank has to enter tank stance its no longer a contest (not that it was one in the first place).

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Originally Posted by Dement

Every role is absolutely necessary for every piece of party-based content while that content is current. Ladon's posts talk about overgearing which is the only time that dropping DPS becomes feasible but still the question remains why drop the DPS?

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Except that it isn't. That's the point. Nearly all of our current content can be cleared not only without DPS, but alternately with fewer than the recommended number of Tanks and Healers.

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Also, I would say that dropping DPS from parties was definitely stated as becoming the new meta.

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Just because it's not the meta doesn't mean it won't happen. What Ladon is saying is that it's going to happen.

I dunno, I can't remember the last MMO I played where the main tank and the main healer weren't the single back bone of the party. Meaning as long as those two were alive with resources, it didn't matter if your DPS is doing 0% or 1000% of the tank's DPS. That is the very reason MMO devs created DPS checks, which if you look into the MMO history, are "relatively new".

After a fight is overgeared, it's not considered "relevant" in my book and doing that fight in any setup for lols is just that, "lols". I don't care what class is dropped at that point.

P.S. Twintania was done with auto-attacks only and the fight lasted 5 minutes. It was a very good laugh even. (Top DPS was the SwO PLD of course lol).

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Originally Posted by Ladon

That is the real situation that is coming down the line here very soon where fully functional party compositions are going to start appearing without a single DPS class in them as ilevels continue to climb.

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I don't know, you hear this doomsday claim all the time in these games, and they never come true.

One issue that nobody seems to want to talk about is 8 man bosses that only need 1 tank. What is that 2nd tank supposed to do?

That damage has to exist. And a lot of these numbers you're seeing is from the offtank, the one who doesn't have to worry about threat, but he's constantly ready to take over tanking if something goes wrong, with obviously lowered survivability, he's only a temporary fix until the rez debuff wears off the main tank. And in an equally skilled and geared group, he's not going to be topping damage.

As a healer I have come to loath tanks that want to emulate DPS because all this new system has caused is bring in the number chasers. They do not do their primary job which is keep the mobs off the rest of the team or their health percentage drops so fast that one lag spike and we have a wipe. My personal opinion is remove the DPS factor from tanks and change how enmity works. This will in all likelihood become a bigger problem the longer it persists and the harder it will be to change it.

If they're one lag spike away from you wiping, that's not always a tank problem. I know for warrior, Defiance doesn't affect how much damage I take, and with deliverance, it's like my HP is always at 75% if I was in Defiance. Defiance has a higher health pool, but it also buffs the healing I take. Inner Beast lowers my damage taken by 20% for a little bit, but Storm's path heals me for 50% of its damage, while hitting harder in Deliverance. BOTH are effictively extra HP to me in the fight.

If I'm geared right, and know that I'm safe in Deliverance doing damage, if I'm that close to dying, the problem is my healer. Group after group, I'm watching myslef drop to -20% in my tank stance, full vit set, and not a single heal is being cast on me. My job is to keep threat, but we also have to kill things before my healer runs out of MP and I die, we also have adds I have to help kill, and other things like that. Tank DPS is a needed thing.