People need to speak up more for Alchemist buff.

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Originally Posted by Gesser

Crevox please be less toxic in the forum. Presuming people are ignorant appears rude.

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Less toxic? I'm not being toxic. People are ignoring potions, and ignoring their worth, ignoring their power, in order to complain and ask SE to buff them. Is that not ignorance?

ig·no·rance
noun
1.
lack of knowledge or information.

People don't know, and that's all there is to it. I'm not being toxic for pointing out that people are being ignorant (the topic itself is saying the opposite: that potions are useless).

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it's that they think they could be worth more... especially for the cost.

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They're not hard to get. People sell them at high prices because those alchemists are controlling the market; which goes directly against this topic, that alchemists need a "buff." If they really are selling them at a high cost, then they don't need a buff, because clearly they're making money off of selling a good product.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

They're not hard to get. People sell them at high prices because those alchemists are controlling the market; which goes directly against this topic, that alchemists need a "buff." If they really are selling them at a high cost, then they don't need a buff, because clearly they're making money off of selling a good product.

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Potions are a luxury item, from what you describe in your posts and from as evidenced in game so far. Potions are not required to complete combat, they can boost your numbers and and help you squeeze out a little more dps if you really want. But it doesn't change the fact that all content can be completed, and completed easily mind you, without them. The only time you'd want to start making an active use of potions during combat is if you were attempting to do fights under geared and needed the boosts. But as it stands, there isn't any real incentive to push beyond some fights phase triggers. For example IfritX has measures in place where if you try to dps him down before the nails are dealt with you get instant wiped.

Because content can be cleared with relative ease without the use of potions, why would anyone want to spend money on them other than to satisfy their own personal gratification for seeing bigger numbers?

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Potions are a luxury item, from what you describe in your posts and from as evidenced in game so far. Potions are not required to complete combat, they can boost your numbers and and help you squeeze out a little more dps if you really want. But it doesn't change the fact that all content can be completed and completed easily mind y

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Exactly. They are not required, and that's SE's intent. They are perfectly fine.

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Because content can be cleared with relative ease without the use of potions, why would anyone want to spend money on them other than to satisfy their own personal gratification for seeing bigger numbers?

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Because not everyone is of that skill level, or the people any given person is partied with is not of that skill level. You may be the best DPS ever in the world, but that DRG in your party is a keyboard turner that only spams Full Thrust. Through use of a potion, you can achieve victory.

Or, even in a normal scenario, more DPS = faster clear. Faster = more efficient, and we all know how much players love to go fast and be more efficient (speed runs cough).

The problem in your post is that you are assuming that all players clear all content with ease; which is far from the case. Here's just one example: they are nerfing the hard mode dungeons because too many people wipe on them (source: Letter from the Producer).

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For example IfritX has measures in place where if you try to dps him down before the nails are dealt with you get instant wiped.

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You use the potions to kill the nails.

Also keep in mind, that none of my posts have mentioned enfeebling potions; which are also very good, and do not share a cooldown with buff potions.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

Exactly. They are not required, and that's SE's intent. They are perfectly fine.

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And that is the complaint that people have against the Alchemist class, it serves no real required purpose. It's core functionality is the production of potions and other such drinkables. It's one of two disposable item generating crafting classes. However the discrepancy between each of these classes, CUL and ALC, is that although in FFXIV both generate luxury items and while none of their wares are actually required to complete content, people are willing to invest in food because it's far more useful in combat than potions / poisons.

CUL has been made far more viable through the tweaking of it's 'exist through death' buff. This provides players with a safer investment for their money and gives food a very real and very effective use in battle. A passive buff you don't have to worry about for 30-40min and this allows CUL to be a somewhat profitable crafting endeavour.

Where as ALC's potions are far less effective in use for their current CD's and effects making them a riskier investment for players considering content can be and has been regularly completed without them. This is what people I think are trying to get at when they are asking for changes to be made so that ALC has an equivalent level of viability to that of CUL.

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And that is the complaint that people have against the Alchemist class, it serves no real required purpose.

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If anything, Alchemists are more useful than any other craft.

All of the other crafts make item level 70 gear. Once you gear past that, that's it. They're done. You don't need that craft anymore.

Alchemists? Lol, they're useful ALL the time, at ALL tiers of content. Potions are useful from once you hit 50 to the end of Bahamut's Coil and Extreme Modes.

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Where as ALC's potions are far less effective in use for their current CD's and effects making them a riskier investment for players considering content can be and has been regularly completed without them. This is what people I think are trying to get at when they are asking for changes to be made so that ALC has an equivalent level of viability to that of CUL.

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I would say CUL and ALC's contributions to a fight are about the same. The total damage gained from using a food for the duration a fight, versus the total damage gained from using two potions (at the right times). Yeah, about the same, except potions also allow you to control when that burst of power is applied, using it at opportune moments in any given encounter (Titan Heart).

While yes, food may be a safer investment due to the fact that a wipe does not simply cause a loss of the item, potions are also a lot cheaper. I would say the amount of gil it takes to get a similar, good quality food for the course of X amount of encounter attempts is the same as it takes to afford X amount of potions for all those encounter attempts. If you don't want to compare gil, you can also simply compare the effort to obtain the materials; it matches up as well.

Like I said; it's not SE's fault people are misinterpreting and not understanding the effectiveness of potions.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

Like I said; it's not SE's fault people are misinterpreting and not understanding the effectiveness of potions.

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No but it is SE's fault for designing content that doesn't require the use of these items. I understand your argument for potions and I can see what you're getting at but I still think you're missing the point slightly.

I'm pretty bad at analogies but I'm going to try anyway so bear with me ^^;

If you can get through your daily life just fine breathing the normal everyday air and the someone came up to you and said "Hey! For $50 I can make you small cannisters of cleaner air that doesn't contain anyone else's CO2 to get you through your days a little bit easier."

Would you bother wasting the money to buy those canisters? Essentially what I'm trying to very badly get at is that there is no market in FFXIV for potions because there is no real or perceived need driving players to use them.

I'm sorry, but could you please stop pulling stuff out of your ass to try to build up potions. You were already grasping at straws with the, "use STR potions in tandem with Shield Oath to get more hate", or "use INT pots to throw some killer DoTs with your healer". Name the last time anyone other than you has used those potions to even attempt to do anything like that.

Right now, potions are lack-luster with very few real applications that are enticing for people to buy / use. 400ish HP heal or 500 MP restored. That's pretty pathetic, that's half a tumult / 2 casts for a healer. Both are barely noticeable, then on top of it, you have to wait another 5 minutes to use another potion. Let's face it, they are sub-par in every way when compared to the 30 minute lasting through death effects that food brings to the table.

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I'm sorry, but could you please stop pulling stuff out of your ass to try to build up potions. You were already grasping at straws with the, "use STR potions in tandem with Shield Oath to get more hate", or "use INT pots to throw some killer DoTs with your healer". Name the last time anyone other than you has used those potions to even attempt to do anything like that.

Right now, potions are lack-luster with very few real applications that are enticing for people to buy / use. 400ish HP heal or 500 MP restored. That's pretty pathetic, that's half a tumult / 2 casts for a healer. Both are barely noticeable, then on top of it, you have to wait another 5 minutes to use another potion. Let's face it, they are sub-par in every way when compared to the 30 minute lasting through death effects that food brings to the table.

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I'm not "pulling stuff out of my ass."

http://i.imgur.com/8CnjFLe.png

You like my potions? I certainly do. I use them every boss fight. I do over 1600 damage with Fester with them, or 2.2k+ damage Flares (sorry, not fully geared on BLM nor SMN). That's not even counting the rest of the damage added thanks to them (snapshotted 45 second dots? Yes, please). Their effectiveness is boosted even harder thanks to the fact that they boost base damage, and then % mods (Raging Strikes and Foe Requiem) then inflict increased damage off of that new base.

People just need to stop trying to argue that potions are useless. They are not. They're far from useless. If you want to look and hate on specific numbers so badly, go ahead and go look how much damage you get from getting better gear, or using food. You won't be happy.

The community does the same thing on other topics. One person says they're useless, and the entire community hiveminds to that point and spams likes to get them to be buffed. If anyone speaks against it, the community doesn't like it, and spam likes on any post that tries to prove it wrong.

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No but it is SE's fault for designing content that doesn't require the use of these items.

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Would that make them used? Yes, it would. But SE doesn't want to be a requirement; they are an aid. If they were required, every player would have to use them, and they would hate it even more than they do now. At the moment, they're an extremely useful supplemental aid for anyone that wants it. Honestly, this is no different than food, or even getting higher gear than the minimum item level to clear content. You can go ahead and clear Ifrit extreme in full item level 71; but why would you when you have better gear? Why would you not use potions?

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Originally Posted by Crevox

Why would you not use potions?

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Because they aren't worth it, from a money stand point and a performance stand point. They are really sub-par for what they do, and yes, I do have HQ DEX pots on my bar for bard. Half the time I have to argue with myself if I should even bother because it's simply money down the drain to make a fight take about four seconds less than what it would if I didn't use it. As far as HP/MP pots are concerned, they aren't worth it unless they had maybe 1.5-2x the effect. At least not with the current cool down they have.

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Originally Posted by Mikara

Because they aren't worth it, from a money stand point and a performance stand point. They are really sub-par for what they do, and yes, I do have HQ DEX pots on my bar for bard. Half the time I have to argue with myself if I should even bother because it's simply money down the drain to make a fight take about four seconds less than what it would if I didn't use it. As far as HP/MP pots are concerned, they aren't worth it unless they had maybe 1.5-2x the effect. At least not with the current cool down they have.

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They're not expensive or hard to get. Go gather the materials and have them crafted. I took ONE day and just farmed the materials, and I've been using those same potions I got crafted for months. It's the same cost/time to make food. It's no different.

The cooldown means you can use it 1-2 times per fight, depending on the boss. You choose when to use it rather than it being a passive braindead buff for the entire fight. You'll get the same benefit out of that potion (possibly even more, and that's not counting opportunity benefit) as food. Simply because you don't like the way the numbers look from your angle does not mean it's bad. If that were the case, trust me, if you don't like how potion numbers look, you won't like food or gear benefits either.

Every class has different, opportune moments in their rotation where popping a potion is extremely beneficial. Knowing that key moment, and then also timing it up with the encounter, is unlocking the maximum benefit of potions.