Tank-specific tips for Extreme Primals

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

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I just saw sooo many tanks either get instantly killed to DWW, or not provoke spiny in time, or OTs losing threat on Chirada when trying to grab the spiny at the beginning of twisters, etc, that I wanted to come up with something easier for the vast majority of groups. Honestly, now that I have my CD rotation down, I'll likely just MT it from now on so I don't need to worry about that part. I'll just need to make sure everyone else is on the same page. I will say this, I much prefer your method then having to tell melee they can't join. The group I almost downed it in while DFing it had a Monk and Dragoon and neither were ever in danger of WW.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

The main barrier to me is that the vast majority of my server is used to the 2-tank method and have been successful with it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And if it IS broke, the group simply removes the broken pieces (shitty tanks) and replaces them with better pieces.

2) Teach the tank when to use his defensive cooldowns so that it catches the Wicked Wheels. Replace him if he's incompetent.

This is an easy choice to me.

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I'm from Sarg too, and this is why there is almost never tanks doing Garuda EX. You don't have any learning tanks, or "under geared" (sub i83? lawl?) joining either. I've made Garuda EX parties taking literally an hour to get 2 tanks. Double WW strat relies on tanks previous knowledge/experience to be able to do it. New tanks usually screw up on Spiny already with just OT position. Triangle strategy is more forgiving on everyone, including heals. Really all it takes is for the top DPS to face Chirada away from the group first (it always comes at same time, herp derp), then move on for downburst after friction. Its really much easier then people make it out to be. It wasn't on a popular YouTube vid for NA people however, so it has never become an established strat.

While its easy to say "if it ain't broke don't fix it", many melee needing to complete/farm this EX are screwed over everyday because of a choice in perceived superior strategy, which might save literally no time to thirty seconds in the end.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Garuda
Turn Titan 90 degrees to the right just before Upheaval to make it look like he's peeing on your party. This provides no tactical advantage. It's just funny.

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lolololol love it. good list

In the original post you put Holmgang used to prevent knockback and now it does not, this is the opposite. It once did nothing for knockback, as of now it stops you from being knocked back.

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Originally Posted by Traek

While its easy to say "if it ain't broke don't fix it", many melee needing to complete/farm this EX are screwed over everyday because of a choice in perceived superior strategy, which might save literally no time to thirty seconds in the end.

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Your final statement here completely relies on your self-made premise that Garuda PF groups can't find tanks because tanks are intimidated by the default method accepted by the community.

This is not an actual fact. Here are some actual facts:

Fact: Tanks need this fight just as much as DPS or Healers do.

Fact: There is a tank shortage at all levels of this game, not just Garuda EX.

The reason why the ratio of tanks to other roles in this game is lower than 1:3 is a very complex topic that delves into aspects of MMO psychology that people may never truly understand. Being a tank just isn't very popular. It's just simply the nature of MMO's and the people who play them.

Despite what you suggest, changing the default Garuda strategy will not change that. This is not the reason why there is a tanking shortage. There are tank shortages on Japanese servers, where the triangle method is apparently the universal default Garuda strategy. There was a tank shortage before Garuda EX even existed.

To say that melee is screwed because of a tanking shortage caused by the double Wicked Wheel strategy is very farfetched. Even more farfetched is the notion that a change in default strategy would cause tanks to come out from the woodworks and tank Garuda EX for PF groups. Vortex rings for everyone.

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Double WW strat relies on tanks previous knowledge/experience to be able to do it.

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Every difficult encounter requires some degree of learning and experience to do it properly. It's called practice. Practice is used to acquire skill. Skill is required to beat content in video games. This concept is not unique to the Double WW strategy or Garuda EX.

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Really all it takes is for the top DPS to face Chirada away from the group first (it always comes at same time, herp derp), then move on for downburst after friction.

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Here is a problem with this strategy: DPS classes do not have the means to hold aggro. A monk or dragoon might get aggro first and he might be smart enough to turn Chirada away from the rest of the group, but what if he loses aggro? Remember: Upon gaining aggro, he can only attack Chirada from the front and all of his attacks are completely neutered. So, Chirada aggros the Black Mage who is standing with the rest of the group and casts Slipstream. Nobody reacts to it. Wipe.

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It wasn't on a popular YouTube vid for NA people however, so it has never become an established strat.

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This is a good point and I hate as much as anyone else the fact that the first and/or most popular YouTube video automatically becomes the default strategy, for better or for worse. When it comes to Garuda EX, I think that the "YouTube" strategy is fine. It's hard to say which strategy is better for PF groups, but I don't think the triangle strategy is any better.

An example of a strategy I hate is the general PF strategy for Ifrit EX. Running straight back for Eruptions, stationary healers, and tanks standing in a V formation, etc... I've never liked it, but everyone on our server learned it that way and Ifrit is easy enough that people can clear it with an unrefined strategy, so it's hard to steer anyone away from it.

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Originally Posted by Mister-Wonderful

In the original post you put Holmgang used to prevent knockback and now it does not, this is the opposite. It once did nothing for knockback, as of now it stops you from being knocked back.

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In 2.0, Holmgang prevented knockback.

In 2.1, it stopped preventing knockback.

Then sometime since then, they fixed it so it prevents knockback again. I wrote the OP before this happened, and just updated it. Thank you for pointing it out!

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Here is a problem with this strategy: DPS classes do not have the means to hold aggro. A monk or dragoon might get aggro first and he might be smart enough to turn Chirada away from the rest of the group, but what if he loses aggro? Remember: Upon gaining aggro, he can only attack Chirada from the front and all of his attacks are completely neutered. So, Chirada aggros the Black Mage who is standing with the rest of the group and casts Slipstream. Nobody reacts to it. Wipe.

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There is no problem with this strategy. If you think it's tough, get a good Bard.

How I always do 3 way is for me to play as a bard. Sisters spawns, pops raging strikes yada yada and it's almost instant grab and hold aggro. I'm already positioned and Chirada auto comes to me without my melees trying to grab aggro and pull them to position like a fool. Why make the Dragoon tank Chriada and waste all his DPS potential because he can only attack from front? Bard does it fine. With all the offensive CDs popped and DoTs ticking I can hold aggro until Chirada dies (she's supposed to die fast anyways, and it does take time for your DRG/MNK to out aggro you).

Really, stop making the DRG/MNK tank Chirada. Ask your Bards to do it. Standing in position, popping CDs and burst at Chirada = Chirada auto comes to position and your MNK/DRG can do full damage potential and kills her faster. Dodge the friction, stack the downstream and you should be done by then.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Fact: Tanks need this fight just as much as DPS or Healers do.

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This is not an actual fact. The fact is that players need the fight and choose what role they want to participate on. Garuda Ex PF groups starve for tanks and Ifrit Ex groups starve for healers. You are naive if you think people don't shy away from the perceived hard roles in fights.

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Originally Posted by HoolieWho

This is not an actual fact. The fact is that players need the fight and choose what role they want to participate on. Garuda Ex PF groups starve for tanks and Ifrit Ex groups starve for healers. You are naive if you think people don't shy away from the perceived hard roles in fights.

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That can just as easily work in reverse. Players who have multiple options and actually want to clear the content will play the class that has the most influence on the team's success.

If bad players truly shy away from difficult roles and would rather wait an hour for two tanks to show up, they got what they deserve. Anyway, I don't think switching to Triangle method Garuda is going to change this. JP servers do it this way, and guess what? Nobody wants to tank there either!

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

That can just as easily work in reverse. Players who have multiple options and actually want to clear the content will play the class that has the most influence on the team's success.

If bad players truly shy away from difficult roles and would rather wait an hour for two tanks to show up, they got what they deserve. Anyway, I don't think switching to Triangle method Garuda is going to change this. JP servers do it this way, and guess what? Nobody wants to tank there either!

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Ha Bokchoy, I'm going to play devil's advocate here again. I'm on Tonberry, and I used to main PLD. When I do this fight I prefer to MT Garuda simply because I'm very comfortable with avoiding double slipstreams if I'm doing 2 way, which is usual for English speaking PF groups. However, I strongly prefer the JP 3 way pull. The simple reason is that it removes most of the RNG in the fight.

Bear in mind that most groups clearing Garuda EX actually significantly outgear the content. That's the only reason why the 2 way actually works. If you DF it and end up with half a party of people who are around the ilvl requirement on DF, you'd be much better off doing a 3 way pull.