[Dev1058] Hate Meter / Pros / Cons / Open Discussion

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Originally Posted by Ayerc

Part of the fun in a battle is having some unpredictability. If a boss suddenly goes for the mage line, and wipes half of them out, your battle tactics need to change while you get back on your feet. Riding the edge of a full wipe is much more exciting than riding the edge of whether or not someone takes hate. Of course, there's a chance that this could still happen with the gauge in place, but it'll be a whole lot more unlikely if we can see the numbers.

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Honestly with or without the hate meter this shouldn't happen. If it does your mages aren't managing their hate properly and that means they aren't very skilled. Honestly if they are that unaware of the hate they're pulling this would probably still happen with the meter in place. If someone doesn't know how to manage hate on their class or if they don't care if they do it, showing them a number isn't going to help much.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Honestly with or without the hate meter this shouldn't happen. If it does your mages aren't managing their hate properly and that means they aren't very skilled. Honestly if they are that unaware of the hate they're pulling this would probably still happen with the meter in place. If someone doesn't know how to manage hate on their class or if they don't care if they do it, showing them a number isn't going to help much.

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Not necessarily. Mobs will sometimes have hate reset moves, like Ultima Weapon in XI, and Cactuar Jack here. Of course, the gauge will clearly show that, and we'll know exactly why it happened almost immediately. We won't learn it, because we won't have the chance to. That's my biggest problem with hate meters, it leaves nothing to solve.

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Originally Posted by Ayerc

Not necessarily. Mobs will sometimes have hate reset moves, like Ultima Weapon in XI, and Cactuar Jack here. Of course, the gauge will clearly show that, and we'll know exactly why it happened almost immediately. We won't learn it, because we won't have the chance to. That's my biggest problem with hate meters, it leaves nothing to solve.

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It doesn't change the fact that you still have to learn how to properly adapt to it. It's pretty apparent when it happens even without the meter. If you don't know how to adapt to it you're going to fail, meter or not.

There are absolutely no pros to a completely minddumbing crutch as the hate meter. It simply makes the game way easier than it should be, and it openly conflicts with the promise of a more challenging game that rewards skill, made on the same battle reform post.
Making the game mindnubingly easier is not a pro.

The idea simply needs to be scrapped before it even gets into the implementation stage.

In any case, this is not the appropriate forum to discuss it.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

It doesn't change the fact that you still have to learn how to properly adapt to it. It's pretty apparent when it happens even without the meter. If you don't know how to adapt to it you're going to fail, meter or not.

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I agree with you here, adaptation is part of the fun too, though it's not all of it.

I enjoy strategizing. I enjoy it even more when it's done through multiple encounters with the same boss. Not just to find how to kill something, but to find out how to kill as efficiently as possible, and with a few people as possible. I like the process of figuring out a boss or mob type more than the end result. The solution to a puzzle is boring and once seen becomes obvious. It's figuring out the steps that get you to the solution that's interesting and fun. This gauge removes a lot of the puzzle in figuring that out, and there's the problem as I see it.

I have no idea how it'll work in practice, but on paper, I don't have a problem with it.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

*You have to glance at the meter for half a second and you know what's going on. That's like saying because a car has a speedometer it encourages you to watch that instead of the road.

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I drive a manual transmission and know the speed and rpms of my car based on gear and sound of engine, not the meters. :P But I've also been driving this car for seven years, so I know exactly how to work it. My analogy follows below...

On a serious note, however, I think this display has a place in this game as long as it doesn't allow you to see beyond your own enmity level as a percentage of the person currently drawing the mob's attention. I do think it encourages smart gameplay by giving people the opportunity to know if a (for example) 3000 TP Doomspike II fully loaded with Ferocity II will draw aggro (Protip: It probably will). I imagine that players who don't need it will ignore it. I also imagine that as players learn how much their playstyle and class/job tends to accumulate enmity, they will pay less attention to it in everyday settings.

Admittedly, I played WHM in FFXI in the same shell as OP, joining generally around the time he no longer played much and had about the same level of respect among the same group of people that he had earned. It felt nice and all because I knew I did what I needed to do correctly. I rarely used Stoneskin or Blink in everyday gameplay because I was either confident or cocky enough (or both) to not need/use them. And I was almost always right. The times I was wrong tended to be calculated risks (needing to use a -ga Cure spell against flies comes to mind) knowing full well that I could end up face-down but at least the whole party wouldn't wipe (Protip: I probably would). And in general I was proud of how well I managed hate.

But this isn't FFXI (although judging by the way these forums have reacted to last nights battle adjustments post, you'd think it is on its way there). And I think that in terms of optimizing high-end battle content (something this game has been SORELY lacking), it just might have a place here. I doubt it is a necessary tool, but I don't see it harming the overall gameplay. People will use it when/if necessary and not always stick to it by the letter, judging for themselves what is needed from them in the battle...just like after running through a zone enough times, you know it well enough to not need a map even when you aren't sticking to the path.

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Originally Posted by Altano

I drive a manual transmission and know the speed and rpms of my car based on gear and sound of engine.

On a serious note, however, I think this display has a place in this game as long as it doesn't allow you to see beyond your own enmity level as a percentage of the person currently drawing the mob's attention.

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You make some good points here, and I hope that this is how the gauge is implemented. Only seeing your own enmity level is far less intrusive than seeing the entire party's. Though I'd still prefer to not have any gauge at all, that's not the reality of the situation, one is on it's way.

In my opinion, a hate meter is great as it lets you weed out the bad tanks from the good tanks. B)

I think it would be awesome if the mobs behaviour was effect'd by the hate meter for example a mob could have a move that insta-kills a party member if the their hate meter is too high or you could have some mobs that sleep/debuff/damage all party member if their hate meter is below a certain percentage or even mobs that target the member with the lowest hate meter percentage, I haven't put too much thought into this and it's probably not even viable but I think it would be cool mechanic IMO.