Dragoons not allowed to use Stun? (Low level Dungeons)

I was playing Brayflox NM with my Dragoon level 32ish.

Our Paladin rudely started slap emoting me. I asked him why and he said, "You know why."

I told him I was new to DPSing, as my main was healer WHM and SCH. He told me I shouldn't be using stun on trash mobs because DRG stun is @#!$.

Is this true everyone? Should I not use my stun ability at all? I mean I was just using it on trash mobs, no idea why he freaked out on me so bad. The leg sweep ability gives some DPS so I figured it was best to use whenever it's up.

Ignore him, unless he was stuning an ability. If he was not then keep using it, is a dps increase for you.

You were right, he was wrong.

It's a DPS increase, keep using Leg Sweep unless you're fighting something specific that you or someone in your party needs to save Stun for.

depends on circumstance, if tank is pulling multiple packs and you stun one causing it to fall behind, or if mob has an aoe that needs to be stunned and your stunning everytime it comes off cd makes it immune at the wrong time, or tank needs your help keeping a mob stunned but you can't because you used it on trash/adds.

Mostly just be aware of when you should and shouldn't use your stun(s).

Basically yes he's using stun as a defensive tactic, but no it doesn't really matter and you probably benefit more from the added dps. There are very few random trash mobs that present an ability that would benefit the party greatly if it was stunned.

Okay, thanks everyone.

I feel a lot better now although that guy really upset me. I've ran tons of dungeons and honestly this was the first time to really be this upset by someone.

I guess I've had some good luck.

Use Leg Sweep on cooldown for any fight that doesn't require or benefit from interrupts, yeah. Weak trash like Manor Maidservants and summoners/harriers in level 50 dungeons need to be stunned, but they should be dying fast enough that overlapping stuns doesn't cause any complications.

The same goes for Spineshatter, but possibly prefer it as a gap closer for enemies who move, or require you to move, frequently.

The Paladin you described is an idiot tank on a power trip.

I always found stun useful on my DPSs to use when the trash mob has some sort of PBAOE. Instead of people running away (or staying away longer) they can continue to attack it.

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Envoyé par Ryamatsu

stun on trash mobs

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Good.

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Envoyé par Ryamatsu

stun on boss that has a stunnable ability everybody knows about, but you stun it all willy-nilly and max out its resistance in 30s because "muh DPS increase" and inconvenience everybody

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Stop.

Whenever there is a fight or enemy that you're not used to, it's a good idea to save the stun until you see them use what looks to be a big attack. If you stun, then you know to save it. If it says that they're immune, spam it as often as possible for that sweet DPS. Of course, with trash mobs, it's often safe to use your stun whenever--there are only a few mobs that come to mind that require a stun.

Of course, it's also important to communicate with your tank if you are going to stun, as PLDs are often dedicated stunners if a fight requires one (like Ifrit HM back in the day). In that case, you ought to hold off on using it.

I actually really dislike playing with Dragoons in general because of the way their stuns are used for DPS. Most players put these stuns into their regular DPS rotation; not caring if the stun itself was used properly or not. While there is nothing wrong with this it does indeed greatly clash with a Paladins play style. A large part of Paladin tanking is taking a boss (or annoying enemy), out of the fight for 20 seconds while Stunning and Pacifying its 6 biggest moves.

Normally we can stun a boss for 6 seconds, 3 seconds, and 1 second before its stun resistance is maxed. The same applies to our Shield Swipes pacify effect. With these two abilities at our disposal we get used to tanking bosses with the knowledge that we have these stuns available (before having to rely on other methods.)


So a Monk opens up a fight with Shoulder Tackle while the Dragoon runs in with a Leg Sweep and Spineshatter Dive. Full stun resistance at the very start of the fight; how lovely. Then they'll both die to the first "100 Ton Swing" on Coincounter or something when I could have stunned every single one without resistance. Same goes with Lunatic Voice, Nightmare, Dragon's Voice, Dreadstorm, Eruption, Paralyze II, Final Sting, Banish III, Tail Screw, Void Thunder III, Divide, w/e.

This applies to White Mage's too; not just Dragoon's. Holy spam on mass pulls may seem like a good idea at the time (and it usually is.) But if there's two Corrupted Elementals and a Ghost spamming Banish III and Paralyze II in Pharos, or three Bee's itching to use Final Sting at any moment on Hullbreaker, I'd prefer if they didn't have maxed Stun resistance right off the bat. I kind of need to Stun and Silence those.

^
As you can see, PLD's tend to be pretty whinny about stuns.

^
More like some people don't give proper stunning enough credit

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Envoyé par Kasathar

Here's some cheese to go with that bottle of whinne. <3

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Education. {You can have this}

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Envoyé par LionKing

And for the tank who dislike Dragoon stun stated above, I see absolutely no reason why the Dragoon need to hold their stun skill ( lose their optimal DPS) in the fight where to stun or not, is not even a matter????

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I listed many situations and abilities that should be stunned which benefits the party far more than random Leg Sweeps. I never said a Dragoon should never use Leg Sweep; only that it should be treated more situationally and not as a 1, 2, 3 DPS ability with no consequences. Furthermore, your "leg sweep is optimal dps" rant is just silly. So you raised your DPS by 10; congratulations(?). That sounds far more useful then stunning hard hitting moves properly. You know, when a healer doesn't have to heal us they put up far more DPS then your silly leg sweep.

Preventing the party from being paralyzed, heavily nuked, stunned, charmed, or one-shotted, gives the party more overall party DPS than random "Leg Sweep DMG!" on many encounters. There are a LOT of "tunnel vision / max deeps" Dragoons who don't look at the big picture.

Here's some cheese to go with that bottle of whinne. <3

Unless the boss need to be stun to cancel out their attack or to delay their movement (Dread in T5, Second boss in Satasha, Caster add in LEVI Ex,...), I can see why NOBODY else should use stun on them but Tanks due to the fact it messes with the timing and number of Stun. Other than that, whoever says you should not use Stun under any other circumstances, they are bloody idiots and you can either laugh at their stupidity or ignore them and move on.

Another reason is a great deal number of bosses are stun resistance. So, to Stun or not, it does not matter. However, using your stun skill is the DPS increase.

And for the tank who dislike Dragoon stun stated above, I see absolutely no reason why the Dragoon need to hold their stun skill ( lose their optimal DPS) in the fight where to stun or not, is not even a matter???? Why you have to stun them when they can just be taken down an fast??:confused:. Is it because as of a Paladin, you feel the need to show off your skills as Paladin by throwing out random Stuns that serves no purpose and a waste of TP and GCD?:confused:.....And normally, in the fight, where Stun is not matter, the skill,even goes off, will NOT 1 hit KO you by all means and DODGE-ABLE, unless you are Way Way under geared, or just being a dummy standing there and feel invincible?? apparently it is not the case though.

Id wish they would find a better solution for the diminishing returns of stuns. Silence doesnt build up resistance, so bards and ninjas are free to use their silences without getting in the way of PLDs interrupts, not so much with the stuns of DRGs and MNKs.

The only reason why they couldnt make it like silence is most likely because PLDs own stun not having a CD, so it would be somewhat abusable. Its kinda ironic if you think about it.

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Envoyé par Galactimus

I actually really dislike playing with Dragoons in general because of the way their stuns are used for DPS. Most players put these stuns into their regular DPS rotation; not caring if the stun itself was used properly or not. While there is nothing wrong with this it does indeed greatly clash with a Paladins play style. A large part of Paladin tanking is taking a boss (or annoying enemy), out of the fight for 20 seconds while Stunning and Pacifying its 6 biggest moves.


Normally we can stun a boss for 6 seconds, 3 seconds, and 1 second before its stun resistance is maxed. The same applies to our Shield Swipes pacify effect. With these two abilities at our disposal we get used to tanking bosses with the knowledge that we have these stuns available (before having to rely on other methods.)

So a Monk opens up a fight with Shoulder Tackle while the Dragoon runs in with a Leg Sweep and Spineshatter Dive. Full stun resistance at the very start of the fight; how lovely. Then they'll both die to the first "100 Ton Swing" on Coincounter or something when I could have stunned every single one without resistance. Same goes with Lunatic Voice, Nightmare, Dragon's Voice, Dreadstorm, Eruption, Paralyze II, Final Sting, Banish III, Tail Screw, Void Thunder III, Divide, w/e.

This applies to White Mage's too; not just Dragoon's. Holy spam on mass pulls may seem like a good idea at the time (and it usually is.) But if there's two Corrupted Elementals and a Ghost spamming Banish III and Paralyze II in Pharos, or three Bee's itching to use Final Sting at any moment on Hullbreaker, I'd prefer if they didn't have maxed Stun resistance right off the bat. I kind of need to Stun and Silence those.

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Sadly most don't know how to hold back like I do when on MNK or DRG. There are specific mobs you don't want to stun until the right moment comes, and you need to know which ones these are an to hold back against them so you don't stun them (unless the tank refuses to stun). However, this also requires the tank to stun/silence them at the right time otherwise the job is on the MNK/DRG, and stun is something I rarely see most tanks do (there are a lot of tank noobs in the DF nowadays). Bosses in general you don't want to stun unless they resist it, though primals and pretty much everything in Coil resists it (with the exception of Ifrit, still trying to figure out why).

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Envoyé par Galactimus

Snip

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First off, if you're chain pulling mobs and they are allowed to use abilities like Final Sting and Banish...you don't have the DPS to do that kind of chain pull. Check your ego and pull smaller.

Second, all the boss abilities you mentioned can either be Silenced (which has no resistance...and you're a PLD, so I hope you're saving Spirits and not using it on CD) or easily dodged, so really no *need* to stun them (only one that may need a stun is Nightmare, but in all the times Ive fought Diabolos he's never killed anyone when we've been hit by Nightmare unless someone royally screwed up)

You seem like one of those PLD who have to pull big every time then blame everyone else when it fails despite the fact that someone is obviously undergeared or you have two single-target DPS...

Sadly I think we are getting into an argument for nothing, if "some" people read the original post, you would know the OP is not talking about boss fights, the OP is talking about trash mobs in a dungeon.

But oh well, this just further proves my point that PLD's tend to be pretty touchy in regards to their only spammable ability, as if it was the all be all. Thanks for the laughs. :D

The stun adds a stun + dmg for you, I do not see any fault from your side.

I am Paladin and to me, Stun a mob, unless it has to be done, is a waste of TP, DPS and waste of GCD. I am not upset if people stun or not, as long as the don't mess up the fight in the process, they can stun to their heart content, save my energy!!!

And no, lol, don't sum all Paladin as an Stun Emo Ass, only a very minor of us are.

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Envoyé par Kasathar

Sadly I think we are getting into an argument for nothing, if "some" people read the original post, you would know the OP is not talking about boss fights, the OP is talking about trash mobs in a dungeon.

But oh well, this just further proves my point that PLD's tend to be pretty touchy in regards to their only spammable ability, as if it was the all be all. Thanks for the laughs. :D

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Saddest part is most PLDs you see won't touch the skill, like they don't know it exists. Then the rest of them wonder why DPS will stun moves they as PLDs usually do...because DPS is used to seeing PLDs who won't stun.

As everyone else has said, that PLD was a moron and extremely rude. Tanks that are rude for no reason are a thing, sadly (as are people being rude to tanks for no reason).

I usually tank (as PLD even) and I welcome DRG stuns, especially DRGs who are smart with their stuns. Enemies with no big stunnable attack - stun as part of your DPS rotation. It's part of being a DRG and there's nothing wrong with it. But, some enemies have a big attack that's stunnable (Manor Maidservant in Haukke NM, the mobs in Haukke HM that corrupt the woodwailers, the Charry Harriers in Snowcloak, the voidcalling cultists in AK, the bees in Qarn NM, the snakes in Qarn HM, most bosses, and so on. For those enemies, stunning them is still fine, as long as you stun their big attack. When I play DRG against those foes, I don't stun as part of my DPS rotation, but I do stun when those abilities come up.

The difference between you stunning as a DPS and the tank stunning as a PLD is that stunning increases your DPS while stunning decreases the tank's DPS. As a tradeoff, your stun is shorter than the tank's. If the content is hard for your group, the PLD's stun is better, but if it's easy content, your stun is better because it increases party DPS and shortens the fight a bit. So, the tank saying he has to stun and you can't is like the tank saying that he's terrible at tanking and needs the longer stun to survive. Just keep that in mind.


And there are a few enemies that need to be chain-stunned, but that's totally different and only appears in endgame raids, and if you don't know that going into an endgame raid like T5 or Leviathan Extreme, you didn't read up enough on the fight beforehand.


Oh, and one other thing - PLD stun doesn't become 6s until level 36. Before that (level 18-35), it's only 3s. DRG Leg Sweep is 3s at all levels, so at level 35 and below, DRG stun is way better than PLD stun (off GCD, no TP cost, 20 potency higher damage). DRG Leg Sweep just gets a CD decrease at 28 from 30s to 20s. Spineshatter Dive (level 40) though is only a 2s stun. But, Brayflox NM is level-synced to 34. So, why was that PLD complaining that you were using a superior ability, preventing him from using a far worse one? Oh, right, he was a moron.

While I don't mind on most trash mobs, I will usually be on the lookout for an aoe that I can stun thereby preventing the need for both me and the dps to move out of the aoe. It's kind of annoying when the DPS uses it without a second thought.

A great example is the crazy golem at the end of Qarn or the final boss. Many times when I go to use my stun when he follows someone with the beam he is already immune.

Also sometimes when I do a mass pull and the damn mobs are shooting aoes there are sometimes I just get tired of going in/out so I stunnlock them.

I main Dragoon, and I generally don't use my stuns as part of my general rotation because of situations like this topic. I use them when necessary. But then there are times when I expect the tank to stun and I get yelled at for not stunning. Sometimes I feel like I can't win.

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Envoyé par PArcher

Second, all the boss abilities you mentioned can either be Silenced (which has no resistance...and you're a PLD, so I hope you're saving Spirits and not using it on CD)

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Thank you for proving my point?

Saving "Spirits Within" to properly Silence mobs on certain encounters is far more useful than the 10 DPS you get from simply spamming the ability. So I'm not sure why it's such a shocker that properly Stunning mobs on certain encounters is far more useful then the 10 DPS you get from spamming "Leg Sweep" and making it immune to Stun.

(Side note: Silence Resistance DOES exist. Silencing "High Voltage" or "Dragon's Voice" can fail if there's too many Paladins using "Spirit's Within" and too many Bard's using "Blunt Arrow."

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Envoyé par Galactimus

(Side note: Silence Resistance DOES exists. Silencing "High Voltage" or "Dragon's Voice" can fail if there's too many Paladins using "Spirit's Within" and too many Bard's using "Blunt Arrow."

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^ This is true. Resistance exists for all status ailments, both on enemies and on players. I believe stun resistance just takes longer to fall off after a stun than the others, and silence works just fine as long as it's not fully resisted. The silence duration going from 1.5s to 1s to 0.5s to 0.1s is meaningless - you're just using it to interrupt, which it does in all cases as long as it wasn't fully resisted. When you chain-sleep a mob though to keep it out of a fight, each subsequent sleep is much shorter, and eventually they just fully resist the sleep. Bind is the same way if you've ever tried to chain-bind a mob that you're kiting.

You can really notice status ailment resistances on players (even outside of PvP where it's obvious) when fighting Hunt marks that love to spam things like sleep or disease or petrify or bind - each subsequent hit has a shorter duration. When petrified for 30s by Maahes, and he petrifies you again when it gets down to 5s left, it refreshes back up to 20s, not to 30s.

Debuffs that aren't "status ailments" (the set icons) don't build resistance, and I don't believe poison does either. Some mobs also have fixed-duration effects, like the stun from the first boss of Sastasha HM, that you can't resist and always last the same duration.

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Envoyé par RayneBoemir

While I don't mind on most trash mobs, I will usually be on the lookout for an aoe that I can stun thereby preventing the need for both me and the dps to move out of the aoe. It's kind of annoying when the DPS uses it without a second thought.

A great example is the crazy golem at the end of Qarn or the final boss. Many times when I go to use my stun when he follows someone with the beam he is already immune.

Also sometimes when I do a mass pull and the damn mobs are shooting aoes there are sometimes I just get tired of going in/out so I stunnlock them.

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Right? I've been killed by the golem and had the party wiped at the last boss due to the tether mechanic (it tethered the healer) simply because I had a melee DPS (or white mage) that was spamming the crap out of stuns.

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Envoyé par Galactimus

(Side note: Silence Resistance DOES exists. Silencing "High Voltage" or "Dragon's Voice" can fail if there's too many Paladins using "Spirit's Within" and too many Bard's using "Blunt Arrow."

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Um...LOL

The "resistance" you're seeing is from multiple silences going out at the same time; do that with any CC ability (where the new timer is shorter or equal to the current timer) and you'll see it (Sleep, Pacification, Heavy, Stun, Silence, etc). For Silence, there is no building resistance; that's why you can Silence every single High Voltage and Ram's Voice and such.

And having a tank hold a DPS ability is better than a DPS doing the same; the DPS is going to do more DPS with theirs (esp DRG, Leg Sweep is only a 20-second CD, where most others are 30 or 60 seconds)

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Envoyé par PArcher

Um...LOL

The "resistance" you're seeing is from multiple silences going out at the same time; do that with any CC ability (where the new timer is shorter or equal to the current timer) and you'll see it (Sleep, Pacification, Heavy, Stun, Silence, etc). For Silence, there is no building resistance; that's why you can Silence every single High Voltage and Ram's Voice and such.

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Again. "LOL" False. Silence Resistance exists. If you use three silencing abilities in quick succession its will become immune to Silence for about a minute. Two Paladins spamming Spirits Within for extra DPS WHILE two Bards are trying to rotate their Silence cooldowns to stop High Voltage / Dragon's Voice WILL cause the mob to be immune to Silence. It has exactly the same resistance build-up as Stun. You use it three times quickly and its has 100% resistance.

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Envoyé par Nyalia

^ This is true. Resistance exists for all status ailments, both on enemies and on players.

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Then why can I get hit with a full 20 second gravity 10 times in 30 seconds?

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Envoyé par Galactimus

Again. "LOL" False. Silence Resistance exists. If you use three silencing abilities in quick succession its will become immune to Silence for about a minute. Two Paladins spamming Spirits Within for extra DPS WHILE two Bards are trying to rotate their Silence cooldowns to stop High Voltage / Dragon's Voice WILL cause the mob to be immune to Silence. It has exactly the same resistance build-up as Stun. You use it three times quickly and its has 100% resistance.

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That sort of situation seems so rare. I don't know if the silence resistance thing is true, since I never encountered a situation where silence was resisted. I mean two PLDs on top of two BRDS all happen to hit their silence attacks at the same time? That seems pretty far-fetched if you ask me. It's not something that would be considered an issue.

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Envoyé par StouterTaru

Then why can I get hit with a full 20 second gravity 10 times in 30 seconds?

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Nyalia is slightly off. All 8 of the common status ailments (Poison, Stone, Heavy, Silence, Stun, Slow, Sleep, Blind, Bind) have resistances and therefore diminishing returns. The "mounted" status disables the diminishing returns effect on Heavy. Other rare or enhanced status ailments (Poison#, Stone Curse, Leadened, etc.) are not effected by resistances so therefore can not be resisted.

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Envoyé par StouterTaru

Then why can I get hit with a full 20 second gravity 10 times in 30 seconds?

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Chocobo is different. It shouldn't be, but it is.

Also,

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Envoyé par LionKing

Another reason is a great deal number of bosses are stun resistance. So, to Stun or not, it does not matter. However, using your stun skill is the DPS increase.

And for the tank who dislike Dragoon stun stated above, I see absolutely no reason why the Dragoon need to hold their stun skill ( lose their optimal DPS) in the fight where to stun or not, is not even a matter???? Why you have to stun them when they can just be taken down an fast??:confused:

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Exercise your brain parts when it comes time to use stun. If a mob is immune, it doesn't matter much. But think about an avoidable OHKO, knockback, or other stunnable attack that would incapacitate or otherwise disengage you from the target.

Don't you think you'd do MORE DPS if you didn't have to run away or dodge a mechanic because your friendly tank stunned that for you? Do you really think an ability on a 30-60s cooldown that does slightly more than an autoattack is worth blowing when you could use a real GCD later on when someone else stuns the mechanic for you?

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Envoyé par LionKing

I am Paladin and to me, Stun a mob, unless it has to be done, is a waste of TP, DPS and waste of GCD. I am not upset if people stun or not, as long as the don't mess up the fight in the process, they can stun to their heart content, save my energy!!!

And no, lol, don't sum all Paladin as an Stun Emo Ass, only a very minor of us are.

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Most stuns are off GCD, why they are a DPS increase as they can be weaved into your normal abilities. But they have a colldown (just like WARs) PLDs ability is on GCD but has no CD, so is balanced.

i do it all the time on dragoon the tank is very rude u want max output dps

I think the basic summary is this.

On mobs you know Stun isn't required or helpful - Stun to your heart's content.
On mobs that absolutely require stunning - Let the tank stun
On mobs where stunning is helpful but not required - Save the stun for the ability, unless you are sure you can burn it down before the ability comes out.

Did I get that right? I don't main a stunner, I honestly don't know for sure.

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Envoyé par Galactimus

Again. "LOL" False. Silence Resistance exists. If you use three silencing abilities in quick succession its will become immune to Silence for about a minute.

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My very first static tested this on several mobs throughout Coerthas, all of which built stun resistance when stunned. We were able to fire off something like 6 full silences in rapid succession on mobs that would rapidly reach stun DR with the group using shield bash/leg sweep/et al spam.

There are no diminishing returns on Silence against PVE mobs unless it was patched in very recently, or if they exist, a single party cannot reasonably reach them.

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Envoyé par Ilenya

I think the basic summary is this.

On mobs you know Stun isn't required or helpful - Stun to your heart's content.
On mobs that absolutely require stunning - Let the tank stun
On mobs where stunning is helpful but not required - Save the stun for the ability, unless you are sure you can burn it down before the ability comes out.

Did I get that right? I don't main a stunner, I honestly don't know for sure.

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That's correct. Though an exception to the 2nd one is if the tank hasn't been stunning it (when they really should), at which point it's on you to stun it.