Reaper's avatar

So we know that there is a theory that there is a change that a reaper's avatar is the 13th counterpart of the user. I do wonder what would happen if the two use enshroud, would they be rejoined or will they be more stronger then other reapers if both avatar and it's user share the same soul?

I've been working on my Hrothgar backstory and decided to make him a dark knight/reaper hybrid, when this thought came to me.

Well, keep in mind the theory that a reaper's avatar being their counterpart from the void/Thirteenth is an in-universe theory, postulated by scholars as of the Encyclopædia Eorzea Vol. III, and as such is subject to retroactive kerfuffling. As it stands, if the theory is correct, all reapers use their shard from the void as their avatars, so probably no rejoining or being stronger than other reapers other than being able to enshroud at all makes you stronger than others who can't.

That is not to say that in your personal story this can't happen though—it could be the theory is incorrect that it's always the case that reapers form contracts with their counterparts but your character did form contract with your shard, so you do get some other benefit from enshrouding! Maybe not "rejoining", but maybe the character is so in synch with this counterpart of their soul that you can do things others can't? Sky's the limit!

It is implied in-game that Golbez (the Contramemoria Era one, not Durante assuming his identity) was Azem's incarnation on the Thirteenth before it became the Void; the Encyclopedia Eorzea book implies it's their Reaper Avatar.

Considering the First's denizens are no less capable than those of the Source, the idea that a higher aetheric soul density improves combat performance is without merit. The "Warriors of Darkness" thrash the Scions in 3.1, and the inhabitants and wildlife of the First are just as deadly and capable as anything on the Source.

I don't remember the exact Watsonian mechanics, but to my memory Enshroud does not work like a rejoining, even if you were contracted to your Voidsent counterpart.

As headcanon though, you can make it whatever you like.

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Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC

[I]f the theory is correct, all reapers use their shard from the void as their avatars, so probably no rejoining or being stronger than other reapers other than being able to enshroud at all makes you stronger than others who can't.

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The Warrior of Light contracting their Voidal counterpart doesn't necessarily mean everyone does so (or is even more likely to do so); coincidences can happen, and given as Zenos contracts with Zero (the Void's counterpart to Vauthry if anyone), that idea is pretty dead in the water.

So, there's no actual evidence disproving the Encyclopedia Eorzea's claim, and I'm not sure where Zero or Cilia got it... because there can't be evidence for it. Or against it; the EE3 called the theory itself 'unproven and unprovable'. There is no test for soul-shardliness, there are no telltale signs (unless you're Gerolt or Rowena), there's really no way to know. Realistically, that theory is there because the developers went 'we're probably never gonna answer this question, so if you desperately want any answer, here's one'.

But because it is unproven and unprovable, that means you do not have to care about it in RP. Nobody has any claim for or against, so if Lore Cops even existed, they have nothing on you. If that angle works for you, have fun; if it doesn't, come up with something else that does.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The Warrior of Light contracting their Voidal counterpart doesn't necessarily mean everyone does so (or is even more likely to do so); coincidences can happen, and given as Zenos contracts with Zero (the Void's counterpart to Vauthry if anyone), that idea is pretty dead in the water.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

So, there's no actual evidence disproving the Encyclopedia Eorzea's claim, and I'm not sure where Zero or Cilia got it... because there can't be evidence for it. Or against it; the EE3 called the theory itself 'unproven and unprovable'. There is no test for soul-shardliness, there are no telltale signs (unless you're Gerolt or Rowena), there's really no way to know. Realistically, that theory is there because the developers went 'we're probably never gonna answer this question, so if you desperately want any answer, here's one'.

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I'm just pointing out that if the theory were 100% real as postulated, all voidsent avatars are shards of their reaper:

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The voidsent entity with which the pact is formed, summoned through the medium of a crystal. For such a bond to be established, the voidsent's soul must be uniquely compatible—perhaps nigh indistinguishable—from the reaper's own, given that the reaper's power relies on their ability to play physical host to the voidsent. If we take the star's sundering as fact, we must consider the possibility that this compatibility is rendered not by chance, but due to both souls once having been part of the same whole - however, this theory remains both unverified and unverifieable at present.

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Therefore, if true, it would stand to reason that OP's character wouldn't particularly stronger for creating a pact with their own counterpart from the void—and if it weren't true, OP could work in that space of their character's shard being their avatar allowing them powers that others lack.

But i do wonder what IF the reaper and their avatar share the same soul. We have seen what happen with the arcadion fighters using souls. Even Scribe mention it and pointed out the similarities between those who use feral souls and the reaper's enshrouded. I can suspect that the reaper and avatar can stay in their enshrouded form a bit longer then normal reapers if their are of the same soul. Since synergy is need to mention it. Something that the arcadon fighters, hunters and solders of Alexandria didn't do since they force the souls to fuse with them.

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Originally Posted by Pimsan20

But i do wonder what IF the reaper and their avatar share the same soul.

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Strictly speaking, since we're already operating within a universe where this is possibly the case for any or everyone... Potentially, it makes no difference. This is just what RPR looks like either way.

That said, as everyone else has pointed out, there's plenty of leeway to have fun with this however you like, and I don't think the ideas you've posited here would sound unreasonable to anyone.

Yeah, while I don't think you can try to tease out objective truths from deliberate ambiguity at any point, I think if you're approaching this from a role-playing perspective, you should go entirely the other direction and embrace the ambiguity. If there is not an answer, don't demand that there be one; instead, play in the space, and pick the approach that works best for you and the story you want to tell.

The only thing I would suggest is to lean away from any approach that declares your character to somehow be materially greater than others. That's not a lore thing, it's more an etiquette thing; everyone in a scene is equal unless in some way negotiated otherwise, so it goes down pretty poorly if you're coming to the proverbial table and saying 'I am the strongest Reaper because Rejoinings'.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Yeah, while I don't think you can try to tease out objective truths from deliberate ambiguity at any point, I think if you're approaching this from a role-playing perspective, you should go entirely the other direction and embrace the ambiguity. If there is not an answer, don't demand that there be one; instead, play in the space, and pick the approach that works best for you and the story you want to tell.

The only thing I would suggest is to lean away from any approach that declares your character to somehow be materially greater than others. That's not a lore thing, it's more an etiquette thing; everyone in a scene is equal unless in some way negotiated otherwise, so it goes down pretty poorly if you're coming to the proverbial table and saying 'I am the strongest Reaper because Rejoinings'.

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Don't worry, i'm not planning to go the i'm the strongest reaper because of rejoining route. I'm trying to avoid that scenario as much as i can. And Which i why i made this forum to see how i can balance it without been a merry sue.

ok, so, i'm a smidgeon late to the conversation, but I do have some things to add to the conversation!

So, first thing's first. the topic of whether or not a Reaper avatar is the 13th shard counterpart of the Reaper themself.

As has been mentioned, this is purely a theory, and one which is very much not supported by any sort of evidence we actually have, unless you want to believe Zero is 13th shard Zenos. If anything, we have evidence that runs counter to this, instead, in the form of Golbez who's implied to be Azem's shard similar to the Warrior of Light, who you can fight AS a reaper, with your own avatar. While this might be a case of gameplay and story segregation, the lack of any sort of special dialogue to reference the matter makes me doubt it.

Now, on the other topic, that of the effects of a Reaper enshrouding on their aetheric capacity.

First off, regarding the aetheric density of an individual in the Source, it's highly likely that the aetheric density of an individual on the source is the same as that of those on shards due to the fact that aether seems to be able to flow two-ways between the shards and the source. for every rejoining, it's likely that, in order to maintain balance between them, the aether distributes to the shards from the source following a rejoining. This would explain why all the shards inhabitants are of comparable strength, because we DO have evidence that multiple souls in one body DOES result in a strength multiplier in combat!

This brings me to the second detail, which is that multiple souls thing! We actually do have evidence, several pieces of it in fact, that souls grant increased power to their bearer. Ardbert's soul for the WoL for example gave the WoL strength enough to punch a hole through Emet Selch, Voidsent enshrouding is based on this principle, Regulators oversoul functions are similarly based on this principle, and Mamool Ja biology also supports this with the two-headed mamool ja ja like the dawnservant being yet another case of two souls, one body, resulting in a significantly stronger specimen.

As for rejoining shards making someone significantly stronger, you may want to look at the case of G'raha Tia, who's fused as of the end of shadowbringers' post-story with an alternate timeline counterpart of himself, where he DOES seem to have comparable strength to his Exarch self, who was able to draw on the power of the Crystal Tower to empower himself. This may be due to having a combined soul, but may also just be a case of him already being that strong anyway, so it's hard to say.