GCD AST Cards, why not?

Here again to ask the stupid questions.

Seen a few folks express their disgust in the idea, but I haven't really figured out what the problem is with having AST cards being GCD skills.

I've assumed it was about making Play specifically an instant cast GCD while keeping Draw/Redraw oGCDs, so you could use Play and weave Draw and Redraw in a single GCD. It could help with giving the job some more mobility and weave windows without having to use Lightspeed.

The only issue I see is losing a cast of Malefic, but that they could cover by adding some kind of damage bonus from using Play, like a stackable buff that raises the potency of the next Malefic cast or lets you use something like doublecast from its pvp set which lets you weave a Malefic/Gravity as an oGCD.

Putting Play on the GCD gives disincentives to ever make the Card effects themselves any more interesting or in need of responsiveness.

Putting Draw on the GCD is fine, as that would give room for Redraw (even if it was returned to multiple charges independent of Draw beyond needing a Card to currently be held), and even a returned Royal Road, etc. You'd just have to roughly double the Card's current strength for it not to be skipped over in favor of Malefic.

You don't need to copy over a Misery/Toxicon mechanic to compensate for the lost ppm of dropped Malefic casts; you just have to make the Cards strong enough to compensate in themselves.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Putting Play on the GCD gives disincentives to ever make the Card effects themselves any more interesting or in need of responsiveness.

Putting Draw on the GCD is fine, as that would give room for Redraw (even if it was returned to multiple charges independent of Draw beyond needing a Card to currently be held), and even a returned Royal Road, etc. You'd just have to roughly double the Card's current strength for it not to be skipped over in favor of Malefic.

You don't need to copy over a Misery/Toxicon mechanic to compensate for the lost ppm of dropped Malefic casts; you just have to make the Cards strong enough to compensate in themselves.

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This is kind of what I have been thinking in regards to my past AST ideas as well... I haven't really sat down to think it out yet, but I've had this mindset of making Draw a GCD that generates DPS passively while setting you up to use cards in some fashion. The only thing about having the card effects themselves worth the loss of Malefic is it makes it really difficult to make the cards appealing to a solo AST. Ideally, you'd want something that has the flexibility to be both effective in groups and while playing alone, because there is solo content in this game and there are people who would like to have fun while using AST solo.

What I've said before is having cards and other support-oriented GCD tools generate a star that orbits the AST and can deal Malefic-potency damage either when you attack a target (as a second attack from you) or that your allies can detonate for you. But I'll reserve that for the next time I feel interested enough to really think through my more recent ideas.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The only thing about having the card effects themselves worth the loss of Malefic is it makes it really difficult to make the cards appealing to a solo AST. Ideally, you'd want something that has the flexibility to be both effective in groups and while playing alone, because there is solo content in this game and there are people who would like to have fun while using AST solo.

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Card buffs last 15s and there are at least 6 GCDs in a 15s timespan, so if Draw cost a GCD the break even point for a solo card damage buff would be 1/6 or about 16.67%. And this is just the break even point--for it to be a gain the buff has to be higher than this. There really isn't any way to make that work except to carve a solo specific case into the ability effect.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Card buffs last 15s and there are at least 6 GCDs in a 15s timespan, so if Draw cost a GCD the break even point for a solo card damage buff would be 1/6 or about 16.67%. And this is just the break even point--for it to be a gain the buff has to be higher than this. There really isn't any way to make that work except to carve a solo specific case into the ability effect.

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This seems an unnecessary complication, though you're right that a GCD Card might not see use in solo play if it didn't have any additional effects attached to it and maintained only the current %DPS buffs, with a 25% chance to see only half value on the AST itself.

It does have additional effects attached to it, though, any of which could be easily buffed in turn. Astrodyne is presently a mere pittance and is painfully inflexible (if not damn near dysfunctional). But it needn't be, and could easily add some additional value per Card that loops back to the AST's own throughput without needing a bloodlilicon mechanic.

Similarly the Cards don't have to remain as generic (and reliant on high potency-within-window) as they currently are. As far as solo play is concerned, it's just that no effect can be outright useless in solo content, nor should any require an ideal target just to see use over Malefic when accounting also for Astrodyne value (or that of its replacement) within the solo fight. (Making Astrodyne more flexible, such as by not needing all 3 Seals --and perhaps instead going from more immediate or short-term value to more long-term value with increased number of different Seasl-- would go a long way in that regard.)

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

Seen a few folks express their disgust in the idea, but I haven't really figured out what the problem is with having AST cards being GCD skills.

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I completely dislike the idea of GCD cards because it tears out a playstyle enjoyed by players and turns it into another playstyle that already exists. Putting cards on the GCD is like the lily system WHM has, but buffs instead of healing, might as well slap on a nuke you can use at 3 seals to completely mimic the lily system at that point. I don't see why people want cards on the GCD, you want a slow and methodical healer? WHM is right there. Some of us don't like slow-paced jobs, which is why we play AST.

Changing cards to be on the GCD is like telling SCHs that their fairy is now automatically summoned when you swap to SCH and sits on their shoulder, you can no longer interact with the fairy in any way and all her skills now originate from you. That would completely delete fairy management from the game and give nothing similar in return. That's the same problem I have with putting cards on the GCD, it would completely eliminate the fast-paced gameplay I enjoy and replace it with nothing, no other healer is as fast as AST, there will be no other option.

What AST needs is something that incentivises the usage of cards across the entire encounter rather than in a 15s window every 120s, the spread of cards would also make it so that their opener/reopener would stop being a near impossible mess unless you save Lightspeed for it. GCD cards is basically the laziest solution that can be done, which is why SE will probably make GCD cards in 7.0. They've already ruined old MCH and NIN, I'm expecting them to kill the last fast-paced job in the game at this point.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I completely dislike the idea of GCD cards because it tears out a playstyle enjoyed by players and turns it into another playstyle that already exists. Putting cards on the GCD is like the lily system WHM has, but buffs instead of healing, might as well slap on a nuke you can use at 3 seals to completely mimic the lily system at that point. I don't see why people want cards on the GCD, you want a slow and methodical healer? WHM is right there. Some of us don't like slow-paced jobs, which is why we play AST.

Changing cards to be on the GCD is like telling SCHs that their fairy is now automatically summoned when you swap to SCH and sits on their shoulder, you can no longer interact with the fairy in any way and all her skills now originate from you. That would completely delete fairy management from the game and give nothing similar in return. That's the same problem I have with putting cards on the GCD, it would completely eliminate the fast-paced gameplay I enjoy and replace it with nothing, no other healer is as fast as AST, there will be no other option.

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As much as I absolutely don't want a GCD on Play... for a GCD on Draw --which wouldn't even need to use any Blood Lily- or Toxicon-like mechanic anyways-- this seems a bit of an exaggeration. And the APM, even the APM density, could certainly be made up for in other ways.

To be clear, I could take or leave Draw being off or on the GCD, given accordant tuning, though I would likewise prefer to see any APM lost to that made up for in other ways.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

What AST needs is something that incentivises the usage of cards across the entire encounter rather than in a 15s window every 120s, the spread of cards would also make it so that their opener/reopener would stop being a near impossible mess unless you save Lightspeed for it. GCD cards is basically the laziest solution that can be done, which is why SE will probably make GCD cards in 7.0. They've already ruined old MCH and NIN, I'm expecting them to kill the last fast-paced job in the game at this point.

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That one, at least, is simple: Just remove its third charge. While it says it only has two, because it begins cooling upon being Draw-n, not being Play-ed, it effectively has three. Return it to cooling only after Play, and you're already solid. There's no Astrodyne rush in the opener, nor are 3/4s of your Cards per 2 minute given within 15s.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Putting Play on the GCD gives disincentives to ever make the Card effects themselves any more interesting or in need of responsiveness.

Putting Draw on the GCD is fine, as that would give room for Redraw (even if it was returned to multiple charges independent of Draw beyond needing a Card to currently be held), and even a returned Royal Road, etc.

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That bit was more about only making one of the card abilities a GCD as opposed to both Draw and Play becoming one, but also yes I agree that making Draw the GCD is better than Play.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I completely dislike the idea of GCD cards because it tears out a playstyle enjoyed by players and turns it into another playstyle that already exists.

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This explains it I think. The heart of the issue for me is probably the lack of weave windows, especially since EW's changes added even more oGCDs, and so reducing an oGCD to use on top of adding an instant cast seemed like a good idea, but it would be another step towards the role's homogenization.

I won't deny it being a skill issue on my part but I feel like 1 use of lightspeed on a 90s CD doesn't really cut it when you're expected to rapidly pass out 3 cards every 2 minutes while they're also constantly throwing content at you that makes you run marathons around the arena.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Putting cards on the GCD is like the lily system WHM has, but buffs instead of healing, might as well slap on a nuke you can use at 3 seals to completely mimic the lily system at that point.

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Thanks for giving us a preview of the AST rework for Dawntrail! :p

One of my old suggestions was to have draw function as is whilst you have charges, but change it to a GCD when you are out of charges.

Not the easiest thing to balance, but personally I'd take it over what we have right now.