https://youtu.be/fsk412wCrJY
Stumbled upon this video essay talking about some of the narrative moments involving Venat's lore and actions and how it might have rubbed players the wrong way. It's a lot more nuanced than "endwalker story bad"
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08-02-2023, 12:44 PMA_moth_called_rose[6.0 - 6.4 Spoilers] An interesting video detailing Venat's polarizing reception
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08-02-2023, 01:04 PMYuella
The fact is if she hadn't done it, the ancients' fate will be the same as the third part of the dead ends. All it takes is for them to say "O, Zodiark, we don't want to live anymore, please give us our eternal slumber" and poof, the end of life in Etheirys. If your kids drown their sorrows in alcohol and drugs, would you let them be or would you intervene?
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08-02-2023, 01:57 PMKizuyaKatogamiThe issue is the hypocrisy the story frames everything in. Literally in UT they beat your head in with the fact that even if a society is doomed to fail it should be on their terms and let them be, not to further expedite the process. This is the issue with Venat. She is the villain in this scenario the scions constantly bring up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuella
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08-02-2023, 02:22 PMKageTokage
It's made all the more silly by the actual fact that the Nibirun are turned away from their nihilistic beliefs with relative ease at the end of the Omicron quests despite being framed as a possible end for the Ancients.
If the very people who fueled Venat's paranoia of a "death by apathy/perfection" weren't hopeless, it kind of undermines the message to me. -
08-02-2023, 02:55 PMClereticAnd should that society not have input on their own fate?Quote:
Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami
The core difference between the Ancients and the societies of Ultima Thule is that most of Ultima Thule's fallen civilizations were due to outside impact; the dragons got hit by the Omicrons, the Grebuloffs fell to disease, the Karellians and Nibirun started their slides based on the influence of Meteion. The exceptions to this are the Ea and Omicrons, where debatably the crisis for both come from the fact that they didn't fall, they're both essentially gripped with crises of existential dread and 'what do we do now'.
The Ancients, meanwhile, fell to the Ancients. In fact, in all three of their possible endings, the fault lands at their own feet. Going in order of the times things spring up:
1. If for whatever reason they didn't come up with Zodiark, they would've died to the Final Days, which is pretty squarely Hermes' fault, although certainly Ancient society isn't entirely without blame.
2. If Hydaelyn didn't step on up to the plate, then everything we've been told would suggest that eventually they sacrifice the planet dry for Zodiark. This is more a societal thing, but if you want to put a face to this side, I'd personally say Elidibus.
3. And for what did happen, Hydaelyn leg-dropped from the top rope, leading to the Sundering. Venat's hands are the ones bloodied by this, clearly.
I would argue that the reason Venat comes off as 'the one villain' of this particular micro-story to some (which I think is a gross oversimplification of said micro-story, I'd say there's no villains in it) isn't because she's the only one with a gun, it's because she's the only one that landed her shot. Everyone else is only guilty of attempted murder, she managed to knock the 'attempted' off the crime list.
But something that must also be remembered is that her plan was the only one that would've left survivors. The End of Days would've wiped out the whole planet if not stopped (as evidenced by, weirdly, Hildibrand), and Zodiark sacrifices would've rendered the planet bone dry (as evidenced from the Nibirun). But the Sundering, (as evidenced by everything before Elpis and most of what's after it) didn't just leave a planet full of people, it left fourteen planets full of people, albeit mostly different people. That hardly makes her objectively morally right, but from an omniscient readers' perspective surely we can see that her decision the kindest and most ultimately fruitful out of all options.
While you are certainly allowed to disagree with her, Venat is not a villain. And to call her one requires brutally simplifying that part of the story in the single-minded pursuit to declare there to be one in the first place. -
08-02-2023, 03:07 PMKizuyaKatogamiYeah no, she is strictly a villain. Your entire hypothesis is just that, a hypothesis. One that has been refuted time and time again. Your entire logic and framing of Venat relies upon people not thinking too hard and just immediately believing her and her mindset. The story literally contradicts itself numerous times. We see in the beast tribe quests the Niburun actually able to overcome their nihilism. Funny how before they were totally doomed right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
At the end of the day, the biggest condemnation for Venat will always be she didn’t even try to help her people. She didn’t try to warn them beforehand. She waited until the final days actually hit to even mention anything. Not even her followers knew the full story. That’s not something a hero does. That’s something a narcissistic person does who believe their own views are wholly right and won’t let anything get in their way. You’re assuming they would have constantly sacrificed to Zodiark forever when that’s not even explicitly stated, it’s an assumption, one directly refuted by Hythlodaeus in ShB.
But regardless, in the end no, it’s not her choice to condemn all her people to death. Just as the scions themselves said it would be wrong to doom another world to save your own, and that everyone deserves a chance even if it ends in their death. Venat didn’t give them that chance, she didn’t even try any other way.
If you want to talk about gross oversimplification, it’s what you’re doing with basically attributing Zodiark as nothing more than a blood god demanding more and more sacrifices.
Also just to clarify again, because i feel this isnt spoken about enough. The kindest of all options would be to tell her people the truth and help them combat the final days. That is if she actually cared about her people and wanted them to survive. The kindest option isnt to stay quiet and watch as people are being massacred and sacrificing themselves to save their people and then condemning them for it and killing billions. -
08-02-2023, 03:37 PMLyth
Ah, this is that video series that your group kept advertising. I knew that I recognized this name from somewhere.
It does take a lot of effort to be an influencer. I think one difficulty that you'll encounter is that the debate over team Hydaelyn and team Zodiark has saturated this subforum for the better part of two years now, so a lot of people here are kind of just done with it. You may not get all that much benefit from placing this here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenightvortex
I suspect the writers are also kind of done with this, which is why that metaphorical (and literal) story ship has sailed. If Endwalker truly was a 'lackluster' expansion, then you can be sure that they won't want to return to the subject matter of the Amaurotines and the Garleans any time soon. So you have been successful in a way, just not the one that you intended. -
08-02-2023, 03:45 PMKizuyaKatogamiSo op says they stumbled upon the video and you take that to mean they're part of some group behind said video? The leaps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
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08-02-2023, 03:54 PMLyth
Oh, not the OP, my new old friend. Caelum.
Either way, it's not like it was that big of a secret anyways. It's good that you want to put your ideas out there, and it's a legitimate way of doing so. I just don't think it's that topical at the moment.
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Originally Posted by Lauront
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08-02-2023, 03:57 PMKizuyaKatogamiWell i will say for it not being topical it sure is gaining far more views and likes than some other lore content creators around here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth