Red is obsolete.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I know right?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

SCH at 90 is 7MP a tick Sublimination - Refresh II is six.
/SCH at 45 is 3/mp a tick - without even the need to use any mp to cast Refresh but receiving the refresh effect.

Refresh II < SCH and /SCH.

Other jobs need a Red more so he needs himself.

And no, I can get Abby whenever I want. But what does a Red get from Abby - Empyrean that will actually allow a Red to have a stronger Refresh effect that a SCH that gets it naturally?
OK.
I'll pay for that.

And no I wasn't sitting in Aht Urghan - there have been an influx of new characters that Abby burned and had Limit Break problems because nobody gave a rat's ass about them vs. Abby burning.

Last days before I quit was helping them get their genkais done.

Whether somebody has Abby or not does not entail one being better than the other.
ohwaitschisomg.

You guys can nitpick at my posts and attempt to trump one minute side of a discussion - but please don't forget the BOLD text posted in the first post.


A Red is nice - but only when you don't have a Blue, Black, White, or any other mage around.

Oh, dear! You really have no clue.

As both a RDM (90) and SCH (90)

Refresh II is superior to SCH for 3 simple reasons.

1. Instant, don't need to wait for it to charge up to gai the MP back, making sure your HP is fine, or getting annoyed as a SCH if you take the hate and drop below 50% health.
2. Main RDM get's more gear for better Refresh than SCH gets for quick charge Sublimation.
3. Composure which even for others now can be augmented with af3 to last almost double the duration

Yes, Refresh I is kind of rubbish for /rdm but no one subs RDM for Refresh they do so for the benefits including Convert, MDB, MAB, Fast Cast III, Phalanx, Stoneskin and so on for jobs that don't get 'em but get use such as BLM or even BLU.

On top of that outside unlimited abyssea most people would have a main RDM to give the jobs that need it Refresh II which with AF3 pants = 7mp/tic so massively superior to the limited Sublimation

As opposed to Sublimation (to block sleep), some stratagems and Conserve MP

As for your last part:

A Red is nice - but only when you don't have a Blue, Black, White, or any other mage around.

BLU - Great job no doubt about it but you forget a few things like alliance targeting, limited buffs to use on others and so on.
BLM - A BLM will want either a BRD or RDM simple enough the spells are still expensive MP wise even with loads of MP Cost
WHM - Outside abyssea (which your doing) Cure VI is rarely needed same with Cure V (mostly used for -enmity) and again they want a BRD or RDM.

Admittedly a BLM or WHM will always be picked over a RDM, but guess what their is limited times you're restricted to only 3-6 people so in an ideal world most people would take a BRD or RDM so hardly useless.

I'm actually surprised someone who doesn't have Abyssea can't understand that.

In Abyssea where MP is nearly infinite, anyone can solo, and the buffs are crazily over powered I could understand your reasoning of thought.

But outside I have no clue where you've come up with these, even using the point BLU's spells are fast casting to trump the trait... Weird!

[ManaKing]

Lots of mayad that a generalist class can't match up to a specialist... Rdm was never better than a specialist class in any field, ever. The only class you can have any gripe over is Blu and that's only that they're better at melee/healing if they focus on it. Any healer not whm sucks in Abyssea as it is anyway, Rdm isn't alone in that.

DNC is better than both of them, but they are the same in that you can't be a main heal in a serious party.



I'm still enjoying playing my RDM and that is all that matters. I do play DNC because it tanks a lot better in Aby and in Lowman situations. That doesnt mean I don't still love my RDM. It's still my main. Just because other classes are blatantly ahead of us doesnt mean we can't still have fun.

Obsolete is just a horrible word to describe RDM. We have proficiency in a lot of different things at the same time. We don't have the ability to do them all at the same time, which is our biggest problem. Historically, we could solo better than almost anyone in the game because of our diversity. That is no longer a unique characteristic of RDM.

The other problem seems to be the Dev teams lack of interest in our current lack of personal power and desirability to a team. Now that we aren't the only class that can low man difficult content, we don't have any real niche besides Phallanx 2 5/5. Our value to a party that isn't a FC isn't significant. But to us, RDMs value is very significant, because it is what we love playing.


To the OP, If you don't want to play RDM because it's not the hot job right now, then you've identified yourself. I can't say that RDMs are reasonable people, but real RDM are diehard about their job. No one that frequents these forums has any intention of giving up RDM, ever. It doesn't mean we agree on what RDM should be, and in fact we fight like animals with each other, but no one wants to play any other job.

I've been playing RDM since NA release. Everytime I come back to this game, I make one. It's my favorite job and regardless of what direction the game takes, I would rather play it than not. It is my favorite job, it always will be.

[Stylin]

Except that in the context of MMO game balance it is an OP concept. Hence why hybrids work so well in single player RPGs but tend to get shafted with support or healing in MMOs.

What does that have to do with anything? "Jack of All Trades, Suck at Them All" is not what the title means. The type of RPG is irrelevant, all the MMO tag means is there's much more room for a dev team to screw up.

[Supersun]

Except that in the context of MMO game balance it is an OP concept. Hence why hybrids work so well in single player RPGs but tend to get shafted with support or healing in MMOs.

How can a concept be OP?

[Duelle]

How can a concept be OP?

From experience, generalists are designed to be inherently weaker. The issue is more how much weaker than the "pure" or specialized classes and how it affects everything else. You're either running the risk of being overpowered or so gimp that the playerbase forces you into a niche just to give your class some use.

The type of RPG is irrelevant, all the MMO tag means is there's much more room for a dev team to screw up.

I disagree. The MMO tag means that approach in design for certain job concepts have to switch gears in order for them to work.

It stops being about the classes as part of a bigger whole because you're not talking about one unit out of several on the field; you're now dealing with one player behind each character out there. This is why shackling Refresh to RDM was a huge mistake. It would have worked in a single player RPG because you could just ignore that part and continue swinging your sword. MMORPGs always have higher stakes when it comes to gameplay, and because of it you have trends that develop within the playerbase. All of those stem from class design and decisions made when implementing classes.

[Stylin]

Duelle, you disagree with me but pretty much made my case in your reply to Supersun. What the hell man?

As for Refresh I beleive that the mistake wasn't giving RDM the spell, it was NOT giving any other mage a good MP recovery option until Scholar's debut.

[Hyrist]

Just noted this thread, my how it exploded.

Some Fact Checking for people:

Waltz 5 is 900 every 23 seconds.

In the span of 23 seconds I can cast Cure IV nearly 3 times, before factoring in Fast Cast, arts, etc.

So no, comparing raw cure power to raw cure power, we're actually in line with dancer, just using your numbers.


Refresh II is 840 net MP return for 7.5 minutes.

Sublimation would need 6 minutes of uninterrupted ticking to reach that amount. However, for that to happen, Scholar would need a max HP of 3360, due to Sublimation max return limitations.

Essentially, Sublimation's 30 second recast timer hampers its long term use, making Refresh II a superior effect.

There's almost no accurate comparison when comparing /sch to /rdm. Inside Abyssea, with Atmas, I'd heavily recommend /sch due to cast time assistance and the abundance of refresh, as well as status removals. /RDM outside due to the fact Refresh I, Stoneskin, and Convert make for a superior MP Self-maintenance.

Situational subjobs for a varying game.

As far as RDM being obsolete, everyone here has stated reasons why not. I'll simply defer you to low-man parties. Red Mage is still incredible in low man situations, especially outside of Abyssea. The simple vastness of what it can do, on the fly, with changes as minimal as gear, makes it an great staple to have. A RDM and a BLU should be able to pretty much duo anything in short order. RDM BLU AND Dancer? Forget about it.

Hybrid jobs rule lowmans, and RDM is still right up there.

[Annahya]

While I know that the OP had asked for us BLU to stay out of it - a pretty transparent way of trying to control the dicussion, anyway - but something I think the OP is forgetting about BLU is that the majority of our "supah fast damage spells" all have a pretty laughably short range. If a mob is moving (being returned via the puller, or someone breaks hate) we can't just stay in one place - and often a spell cast right after movement is stopped is interrupted. So yeah, if we are fighting worms, and in ideal situations, we are pretty darn fast.

But any number of situations can make our damage output take nearly as long as the casting time on that tier IV that was mentioned...

[Duelle]

Duelle, you disagree with me but pretty much made my case in your reply to Supersun. What the hell man?

Well, I think where you and I differ is more on the "worth your salt at your trades" bit. RDM as it is is currently not worth its salt in the melee department. We've gone over why in the melee thread, so no need for repeats here, though.

As for Refresh I beleive that the mistake wasn't giving RDM the spell, it was NOT giving any other mage a good MP recovery option until Scholar's debut.

I disagree. Support-oriented things should be given to support-oriented classes. It made sense for Bard to get this through ballad, but it never made sense to give it to RDM because RDM at the time was a generalist that should have been pushed towards the option of front-lining and hitting things or back-lining and healing/nuking.

This is why I also say MP regeneration should be inherent to anyone with an MP bar. Ideally, SMN, BLM and WHM would have gotten 3 tiers of Auto refresh, RDM, PLD and DRK would get 2. Refresh would be implemented as self-cast for RDM and +Refresh on gear could have been put in stuff as early as the lv70 JSE armor for those classes (though I would go and just put it on one piece of each original AF set). No need for Refresh II, no refresh-whoring forced upon RDM (cure botting would still probably be an issue, though), and so on.