[dev1007] Voidwatch: Obtaining Spoils

[Mahoro]

Eh, I guess another major issue I have is that joining a large shell of strangers with frequent mandatory events would prevent me from doing things with my nebulous collection of friends. It's not so much that I dislike you guys as that I don't know you. My social has 3~4 people on every night, and we can go do things. Sometimes one of us finds out about an alliance event going down, and we go do things in an alliance. Often it's just me dualboxing dynamis and doing Dancer testing.

That's too bad ;; I like many of your posts on BG and here and you'd probably be a good fit for us if you ever change yer mind!

[Byrth]

Honestly, for things like Fafnir it should really be "if you want it and you popped it, it's yours." Same deal for Nidhogg.

There's no reason to force people to share drops from low mannable monsters that you choose to do with a linkshell. The story always ends with a small number of people who farm pops in the linkshell and a large number of people who leech.

Thanks for thinking I'd be a good fit though guys. I'm honored. I just don't really feel like regularly dealing with an alliance worth of people anymore though. hermit@<3

[Mahoro]

Honestly, for things like Fafnir it should really be "if you want it and you popped it, it's yours." Same deal for Nidhogg.

There's no reason to force people to share drops from low mannable monsters that you choose to do with a linkshell. The story always ends with a small number of people who farm pops in the linkshell and a large number of people who leech.

Normally, I would agree with you, but then the question is...what ISN'T low-mannable in this game anymore, except VW and certain Arch-Dynamis bosses? That is why we have a rule for popped mobs in LS, that if you pop it in shell you choose one drop after you see the loot pool (or in Abyssea one type of drop, i.e., you can lot all trinkets or Magian items of the same type). This way we give at least some incentive for dragging the entire LS out to do a lowmannable mob during event time.

This actually works for Fafnir or Nidhogg too, because odds are only ONE thing of value will drop from it anyway, and that will be yours because you get your first pick of the pool. I have never heard a single testimonial of a Ridill and Sweet Tea dropping off the same Fafnir, but if it were to do so, the person popping Faf would have to choose between one or the other. I think that is fair. If the person wants all drops to himself, they could just kill Faf with 2-3 people outside LS event time.

[Xellith]

My LS has the rule of "If its your pop you lot 1 thing from the pool or one type of item in abyssea". So If someone had worked to get a zeni popset and we popped Tyger or Tinnin they could lot any 1 item they wanted from the pool. Everyone else gets to freelot the rest.

Of course this is all situational depending on if ones persons set was added to someone elses. Generally if people worked together for a pop we would let multiple people lot.

People who just show up for help should get a shot at something but not at the expense of people who actually worked at the pop.

KS99 popsets we generally have everything just go freelot since its all worthless anyways - some of the money drops e.g speed belt we let the popper get. The popper gets the HNM pop. All the drops from the HNM go to the popper. Anything they dont want is freelotted between the group.

[MarkovChain]

People don't duo fafnir ?

[FrankReynolds]

People don't duo fafnir ?

no, they usually have buyers there too :P

[Byrth]

I think having mandatory events that can be lowmanned at this stage of the game is just kind of an issue in general.

Like, KS99 Wyrm, Fafnir, and Nidhogg can all be killed with a single party. Killing with more than a single party might slightly speed up your kill rate, but not enough to offset the fact that it's no longer purely your pop your drop. Fafnir is an easy duo, let alone with a party. Nidhogg is a harder duo, but honestly not that much harder. By making it a full-out linkshell event, you take the few people who have pop items and could have just gone and killed the monsters together and force them to share the drops that they could have gotten for themselves in a comparable amount of time (assuming there was no event that night) with the rest of the linkshell. Assuming everyone is equally skilled/connected, being in the linkshell has just cost them drops without providing any service.

If people aren't equally skilled/connected with a system like yours, then some people will only be able pop when your linkshell is doing "an event." In this case, the more skilled/connected players would logically not pop their pops then and the linkshell would basically end up exploiting people who aren't skilled/connected enough to do lowmannable content.

It's not like linkshell attendance really matters at those lowmannable events, so who are you trying to entice with these optional drops? Why should a WAR have to choose between N.legs and E.body after he blew a thousand KS for a Honey Wine?

In the event that everyone just gets whatever items they want from the monsters they pop, people without pops can still come along to take drops people don't want (like N.head, A.feet, Ridill, BB item, etc.), and people who aren't skilled/connected enough to do things normally can still go along without suffering any penalty.

[Mahoro]

I think having mandatory events that can be lowmanned at this stage of the game is just kind of an issue in general.

Like, KS99 Wyrm, Fafnir, and Nidhogg can all be killed with a single party. Killing with more than a single party might slightly speed up your kill rate, but not enough to offset the fact that it's no longer purely your pop your drop. Fafnir is an easy duo, let alone with a party. Nidhogg is a harder duo, but honestly not that much harder. By making it a full-out linkshell event, you take the few people who have pop items and could have just gone and killed the monsters together and force them to share the drops that they could have gotten for themselves in a comparable amount of time (assuming there was no event that night) with the rest of the linkshell. Assuming everyone is equally skilled/connected, being in the linkshell has just cost them drops without providing any service.

If people aren't equally skilled/connected with a system like yours, then some people will only be able pop when your linkshell is doing "an event." In this case, the more skilled/connected players would logically not pop their pops then and the linkshell would basically end up exploiting people who aren't skilled/connected enough to do lowmannable content.

It's not like linkshell attendance really matters at those lowmannable events, so who are you trying to entice with these optional drops? Why should a WAR have to choose between N.legs and E.body after he blew a thousand KS for a Honey Wine?

In the event that everyone just gets whatever items they want from the monsters they pop, people without pops can still come along to take drops people don't want (like N.head, A.feet, Ridill, BB item, etc.), and people who aren't skilled/connected enough to do things normally can still go along without suffering any penalty.

I understand what you are trying to say, but let's use Abyssea for example. The vast majority, if not all, of it is lowmannable. If everyone just gets whatever items they want from monsters they pop, theoretically an entire event can go by where people who are helping to kill the mob either don't get anything or get a few dregs here and there. The rules of any LS have to be neutral and allow for the ideal situations as well as the non-ideal ones. Some LS's make the decision to build an incentive into the event for the LS in some way every time something is popped in shell, because the popper made the decision to use the LS's resources and event time for a private pop that bypasses the normal DKP.

I agree having mandatory events for lowmannable stuff is a constant tension, and one that isn't easily solvable. As Rak said, there are certain people who can dual-box/tri-box, etc. These people don't pop a lot of their private mobs in shell, instead choosing to save their points and lot stuff from events that can't be lowmanned. For the rest, you have the popping policy. I see how you might think it is exploitative, but it comes from a desire to see those 17 other people who help get something for their effort. Some LS members only log on during event time and don't have the time or wherewithal to build private sets or mobilize help during LS offhours. Instead, they look solely to LS event time to get them stuff. Incidentally, it seems like Xellith's LS uses the exact same rules we do.

I also agree the policy is strained a bit when you apply it to something like Land Kings, because the person would be choosing between Ridill or Sweet Tea, or N. Legs and E. Body (in the rare case you would actually see these items drop at the same time). But again, it was their choice to use the LS to do the lowmannable event, and it's sort of the price we built in to dragging people out to Dragon's Aery to "help." (Same with ZNM, dragging people out and having them spend zeni to enter your Sarameya fight etc). Even if they chose to lot E. Body off their Nidhogg, they are completely free to spend DKP to outlot others on N. Legs.

[Raksha]

I think having mandatory events that can be lowmanned at this stage of the game is just kind of an issue in general.

Like, KS99 Wyrm, Fafnir, and Nidhogg can all be killed with a single party. Killing with more than a single party might slightly speed up your kill rate, but not enough to offset the fact that it's no longer purely your pop your drop. Fafnir is an easy duo, let alone with a party. Nidhogg is a harder duo, but honestly not that much harder. By making it a full-out linkshell event, you take the few people who have pop items and could have just gone and killed the monsters together and force them to share the drops that they could have gotten for themselves in a comparable amount of time (assuming there was no event that night) with the rest of the linkshell. Assuming everyone is equally skilled/connected, being in the linkshell has just cost them drops without providing any service.

No one is forced to bring an orb. If you want the LSes help beating the ks99, then you are bound by the rules. If you don't want to follow the rules then dont bring an orb. We also offer points for people who donate their orbs.

Most everyone in our LS just pops theirs on free time, we very rarely do KS99 runs. This is kind of a non-issue really.

If people aren't equally skilled/connected with a system like yours, then some people will only be able pop when your linkshell is doing "an event." In this case, the more skilled/connected players would logically not pop their pops then and the linkshell would basically end up exploiting people who aren't skilled/connected enough to do lowmannable content.

The purpose of doing the low-mannable content is to help the people who can't/won't do it on their own. I wouldn't call that exploiting anyone. The way it usually goes down is that people who have the resources to low man stuff donate their pops for points, and the people who need the drops bid on them. The people who "will only be able to pop when the linkshell is doing an event" wouldn't have the opportunity to pop at all if it wasnt for the LS.

And to be honest, there isn't a lot of this "exploitation" happening. The majority of what we do is stuff like voidwatch. When we do abyssea events it's usually stuff like Bukhis/Apademak/Azdaja which isn't easily low mannalbe by most people, and drops items that lots of people want (+2s as well as emp upgrades). (Yes I know those can dual boxed, but not everyone has the drive/ability to do that)

It's not like linkshell attendance really matters at those lowmannable events, so who are you trying to entice with these optional drops? Why should a WAR have to choose between N.legs and E.body after he blew a thousand KS for a Honey Wine?

Nothing is stopping him from doing a YOYD pickup run on the side, and if he wants both drops then that's probably his best bet.

[Rearden]

Yeah the only argument I'll make is, well, go do the Wyrm KS99 solo then.

A linkshell should work to serve its members.

When we do them, you have people there that want BB items and people there that want NQ/HQ pops. That's the only reason to use seals. People A take BB items, the linkshell pops Kings to get drops that people B want. If you want to do your pop your drop, then your attitude is inherently not group oriented (in the sense that, you want to sell the NQ pop or kill NQ to sell the HQ pop). That's fine, and in a linkshell you can lowman these events and do just that - however if people are wanting to use seals and that's the "event" then the use of those pops are used to benefit the linkshell.

Also, Blueprint has a long and storied tradition of completely legal activities.