Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

[Fiarlia]

I don't think English is his native language.

....At least I hope not.

[Leonlionheart]

Congratulations, you can read pet job, unlike a lot of people. BTW, is the WAR finally pulling the "only in Abyssea card?" I purposely left out: if we're outside of of Abyssea, WAR can take a hike.

You did take the bait. Thanks! What's wrong with the NIN WAR WHM plan? Nothing at all, except that for once in almost 900 posts someone BESIDES ME admitted that lowman is the best setup in Abyssea. No BRD. No DNC. You can't give those two jobs any credit for boosting the power of the WAR because THEY AREN'T THERE. Your WAR is also holding back so the NIN can tank.

SMN and BST are excellent in the absence of buffs. Your party setup has a complete absence of buffs. Your WAR isn't the top of the totem pole and pet jobs aren't the bottom.

take 2 smn: get 1 red proc

wait a minute

take no brd: get yellow EVERY TIME

wait a second

take a pet party: get yellow ever

hold up

~end sarcasm~

take 5 smn, or a pet party: take 45 minutes to kill anything

somethings not right here...

take 1 war 1 nin 1 whm 1 brd 1 blu 1 blm
get red
get yellow
kill in 5 minutes or less, without trouble at all

I think we've found a winner!

[Korpg]

take 2 smn: get 1 red proc

wait a minute

take no brd: get yellow EVERY TIME

wait a second

take a pet party: get yellow ever

hold up

~end sarcasm~

take 5 smn, or a pet party: take 45 minutes to kill anything

somethings not right here...

take 1 war 1 nin 1 whm 1 brd 1 blu 1 blm
get red
get yellow
kill in 5 minutes or less, without trouble at all

I think we've found a winner!

This is the most sense made in the last 20 posts.

Anyone have any idea as to what Dallas is talking about?

[Alhanelem]

Back again! it's the most sense made, but it's not a lot of sense made, because i've done many pet burn fights, and they don't "take 45 minutes (or some other arbitrary time" to kill something that anyone else kills in "5 minutes." It might take a little longer, yes, but nothing absurd like that.

Random maybe bad example: Take the hydra boss in Walk of Echoes. I've done this WoE run multiple times both with pet burns (which were done by JP, oddly enough) and with conventional party setups. Regardless of method, no kill took drastically more or less time than another. Yes, there was variance. But not a 9 to 1 difference or anything near that extreme. In fact, the pet burn group killed the boss easily with no deaths, where there were always a few deaths in the "normal" setup. In the pet burns there were a few summoners with the BSTs. Since there's no crappy-ass proccing system in WoE (well, actually there does seem to be one, but only red proc and even that is rare) limiting potential party setups, the pet burn strategy actually worked better, not really having to worry about any of the mob's TP moves or feeding it TP.

I realize WOE isn't something everyone does every day, but it does represent a fight that isn't held down by procs, and it represents an example of pet burning not being worse than any other strategy. To me, it reinforces how the proc system may mean more shinies, but it ruins the gameplay (for me, at least).

To tie into the melee SMN crap, even in the Ukon WAR comparison, the WAR was obviously substantially higher in damage, but it wasn't 900% higher (e.g. to kill something in 5 minutes vs 45).

[Korpg]

Back again! it's the most sense made, but it's not a lot of sense made, because i've done many pet burn fights, and they don't "take 45 minutes (or some other arbitrary time" to kill something that anyone else kills in "5 minutes." It might take a little longer, yes, but nothing absurd like that.

Random maybe bad example: Take the hydra boss in Walk of Echoes. I've done this WoE run multiple times both with pet burns (which were done by JP, oddly enough) and with conventional party setups. Regardless of method, no kill took drastically more or less time than another. Yes, there was variance. But not a 9 to 1 difference or anything near that extreme. In fact, the pet burn group killed the boss easily with no deaths, where there were always a few deaths in the "normal" setup. In the pet burns there were a few summoners with the BSTs. Since there's no crappy-ass proccing system in WoE (well, actually there does seem to be one, but only red proc and even that is rare) limiting potential party setups, the pet burn strategy actually worked better, not really having to worry about any of the mob's TP moves or feeding it TP.

I realize WOE isn't something everyone does every day, but it does represent a fight that isn't held down by procs, and it represents an example of pet burning not being worse than any other strategy. To me, it reinforces how the proc system may mean more shinies, but it ruins the gameplay (for me, at least).

To tie into the melee SMN crap, even in the Ukon WAR comparison, the WAR was obviously substantially higher in damage, but it wasn't 900% higher (e.g. to kill something in 5 minutes vs 45).

Even solo, it doesn't take me more than 20 minutes to kill anything. I doubt that with pet burns, it would take more than 7 minutes.

But the point is, it does take longer to kill something with a pet burn than it does with a proc burn. But the advantage of pet burns are, little to no deaths (only time anyone dies on a pet burn is if there is a very damaging AoE move and the SMN happens to be in there trying to use BP at that time) vs a higher risk of death with a "normal" burn.

What proc burns bring to the table is increased drop rates. That is all.

But when it comes to killing ability, pet burns = proc burns.

[Greatguardian]

Color me uninformed, and that is very possible considering I don't do anything in pet burns, but the only pet burns I've seen take significantly more people than a "standard" kill team would. Can 3 Bst/Smns handle Kirin and other Shijin? Or the WoE Hydra?

If they can, that's cool. I'm just saying, the only pet burns I've ever seen come in the form of either 2-3 Bst/Smns kiting the crap out of everything and taking an hour, or 12-18 Bst/Smns just throwing pet bodies at things till they keel over. Can a low number of Bst/Smns kill strong NMs without resorting to Kite/DoT tactics?

[Alhanelem]

What proc burns bring to the table is increased drop rates. That is all.

And greater exclusion of various jobs from being able to participate in any capacty other than standing by and watching.

If people are going to get the procs every time (or most every time) and get more drops, then why not just give us freedom to kill shiat however we want and just have higher bleeping drop rates?

Proccing limits strategies and discourages creativity or otherwise "fun" play, and encourages killing everything the same way for the sake of getting more drops.

It's not the only monkey wrench in pet killing, but the most annoying one.

Monsters that absorb physical during TP moves are obvioulsy more difficult to pet burn, because pulling pets off the mob to avoid healing it is going to make the monster move around. It can still be done, but it's harder (and will take forever if you DON'T avoid healing it.

I have seen summoners duo the Scars iron giants, and I even saw one summoner atetmpting to solo it, and he almost succeeded, but got caught in an AoE that happened at a bad time.

[Greatguardian]

WAR, NIN, and MNK are the 3 strongest jobs in Abyssea anyways. If a group is top-tier and using the most efficient method to kill things as possible, the proc system would not have affected the invite order at all.

If a group is not top-tier, and/OR just does not care about using the most efficient method possible, then nothing has changed and non-proc jobs will still get invites.

QED: Proc system does absolutely nothing to affect the invite hierarchy in Abyssea. Strawman less.

[Alhanelem]

QED: Proc system does absolutely nothing to affect the invite hierarchy in Abyssea. Strawman less.

It totally does. You think "top tier" groups are the only ones who only invite certain jobs?

If you're not a WAR, NIN, MNK, WHM, BRD, BLM or BLU, you do not get taken on any pick-up NM kill. That's less than half of all jobs viably accepted in abyssea.

If you don't think this is a problem, you're crazy. It's not a strawman, it's a fair logical argument. The Proc system in abyssea encourages bandwagoning and discourages varying strategies to kill a mob, regardless of job combination.

[Cream_Soda]

Proccing limits strategies and discourages creativity or otherwise "fun" play, and encourages killing everything the same way for the sake of getting more drops.

Well, with how many more times you'll have to kill each NM, you'll have plenty of room for all that extra fun you love so much.

ITT: You can't have fun and be efficient at the same time.