Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

[Dallas]

What the hell did you just type?

Flaws that were ignored because one mathie posted numbers for a WAR in a 5-man party where everyone's job was to make him look good.

[Dallas]

Let's face it, Ukon WAR need 3 other people to look good, so divide all their damage by 4.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Since it didn't get in your thick skull the first time, it was an example of maximum damage potential a job can give (which was unfair, since it compared the best melee DD in the game to the second worst). Yours falls far short on mereesmn.

EDIT: you know what, what in the fuck, I give up. Obligatory are you CM/elementa so I can save everyone else time.

[Alhanelem]

Let's face it, Ukon WAR need 3 other people to look good, so divide all their damage by 4.

yeah, that makes real sense, I'm sure those other three people are each responsible for 25% of the WAR's damage... not...


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At any rate.... we can have a pissing contest about which job is the best at whatever all day long. All I was ever trying to say is that meleeing increases SMN's damage capability (quite significantly, as the spreadsheeting shows). It's not enough to make SMN a competitive job, which goes to highlight the job's inherent flaws like how it has dozens and dozens of abilities that are all locked to two shared recast timers. But it's still an improvement for the job when used well. It's just not going to be enough to make it any more popular than it is now.

[Razushu]

That is absolutely not true and you have absolutely no idea what the potential of other jobs is if you think that they are incapable of doing all 3 simultaneously. The better a player is, the better they are able to focus on multiple things at once.

RDM's refresh/Haste cycle is easy and every good RDM in the entire game should have this internalized to the point where it's not even taking a moment of their attention away from everything else. Healing is also very easy, and not something that needs to be spammed fulltime. Good RDMs can melee and outdamage SMN. Good RDMs can also Nuke and outdamage SMN. All while keeping up Haste/Refresh and tossing out cures. I've been doing it every time I've used my RDM without issue. Got spare MP? Not riding your nuke timer and your temp meds? Nuke more.

BRD casts 2 songs every 2-3 minutes. 4 if there's Ballads in play. There's a reason they were so often called on to pull for parties. They have a ton of spare time. And with Evisceration, they handily destroy Summoner in the damage department. They also heal as well, or better, than SMN by having the same spells and better access to fast cast/haste gear/buffs.

SCH can Heal, Buff, and Nuke at the same time easily. That's basically what they do. They will also outdamage Summoner in sheer nuking power, completely ignoring melee. What your pet can do every 45 seconds, they can do every 5-10.

DNC's Haste Samba is singularly better than every Summoner buff in existence combined. They can heal significantly better than Summoner, all while doing exceptional damage. Just ask Byrth, Dancer is sorta his thing. They are exceedingly powerful damage dealers, even more so inside Abyssea.

Even a Hexa Strike / Mystic Boon WHM can handily destroy SMN in the damage department, while being the best healer in the game and keeping a healthy barspell/Shellra5/Haste/etc set up at all times. I keep my WHM at 88 these days specifically to take advantage of my Octave club offhand and handily destroy things while main healing parties.

Again yes things will out Damage me, yes they will out buff me yes they will out heal me. but all at the same time I doubt it with the exception of RDM and SCH maybe but hate can become a problem.
DNCs one buff isn't better than all SMN buffs.
BRD this BRD /WHM to heal pull and DD?
WHM yes great DDs but I've yet to see one main heal and buff and while DDing

The fact we can do all three easily at the same time is a good reason to except us.

I'm not trying to say we'll out perform anything just that we perform well enough make usm a worthwhile invite

[Dallas]

yeah, that makes real sense, I'm sure those other three people are each responsible for 25% of the WAR's damage... not...

Of course they aren't, but no one has the guts to show unbuffed contribution of WAR vs SMN. If I alone answer my question, it stands.

[Greatguardian]

Stop bringing up haste. Both jobs have native spell haste. If you can have marches, so can I. If you can have haste samba, so can I. The only citeable gap in haste is a small gap in gear haste.

I'll give you your Hexa, and won't argue that one. But for the love of all that's holy, stop pretending like SMN doesn't have its own haste spell or anything.

Have you looked at how abysmal SMN melee damage is? Especially using Mykrr? A fully buffed (RCB, Marchx2 +3, Haste Samba) SMN is looking at around 250 DPS (400 if you include Garuda spamming claws), compared to a Ukon WAR's 1,000/s. White Mage probably falls in around 500-600, but I can math it out if you really want me to. Haste Spell is only a minor Haste buff. That's 40% total Haste (for a WHM, or 37 for SMN). Add in real Haste buffs. Yes, real ones. Marches. Samba. And White Mage absolutely destroys SMN. Why? Because:

A) Garuda will never get more than 15% Haste

B) Predator Claws will never happen more than every 45 seconds

C) Staff Weaponskills are absolute crap, and every Mykrr used will constitute 0 DMG in the WS phase. Especially if used at 300TP.

D) Garuda will never eat food, and Avatars have abysmal damage ratings and rely primarily on their extremely high pDif cap to deal damage. Result: Attack means a hell of a lot to Avatars, and they are in no way capping it on things higher level than them.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Frankly I think the best thing to come out of this thread is acknowledgement of PUP being a decent DD now...

Stop editing quotes. When a new page rolls over and you edit a quote, it makes it look like the person really wrote that.

SMN stomps SCH
SMN stomps a BLM in melee and isn't far off from a BLM that isn't suicidal
Due to lack of good weapon skills and no other real spike damage, SMN probably stomps RDM in melee mode. I suppose RDM could spam nukes and that might be better but that takes you to BLM suicide mode
SMN probably on around the same level with BRD

If there was no cap on BP delay minus, SMN would be more competitive in all roles.

1. wut
2. Blm has more defensive abilities than Smn and has no problem going 'suicide' inside abyssea, maybe less outside (Assuming Smn was even in Aoe/melee range)
3. CDC says what to melee argument, still has good defensive tools to blm suicide argument
4. possibly, haven't mathed it out but Brd is still looking more attractive overall.
5. Agreed.

[Alhanelem]

Of course they aren't, but no one has the guts to show unbuffed contribution of WAR vs SMN. If I alone answer my question, it stands.

Uhm... that's already been done.

We learned two things:
SMN's damage ability does significantly increase by meleeing with an empyrean/relic weapon (Which is all I'm trying to say)
The WAR still stomps the SMN despite this. (which is what you're failing to argue against)

Have you looked at how abysmal SMN melee damage is?

It's not abysmal. It's not anywhere touching a WAR, but a WHM can't do that either. Also, you're wrong that the avatar can't achieve more than 15% haste. You can get pet haste through gear augments.

[Dallas]

GG will avoid the question as long as it benefits the BG cause.