Why is Summoner the most ignored, misunderstood and broken job?

[Korpg]

It really does seem that you are scraping the bottom of the FFXI experience, Korpg. The rest of us know when we arrive at a mob that should not be meleed. Hopefully not even you believe your tripe.

I don't get what you are saying. Not only did you fail to insult me, but you also admitted that not even you would melee on certain mobs, even though the whole basis of your argument is to melee?

Lets just assume for a minute that you don't melee a mob, but use Regain Atmas to do your WS to recover MP. What purpose does that serve? You gain MP back, true, but at what cost? Even when you don't have your avatar on the mob (BP from a distance) you still use up 3 atmas just for Regain to keep your MP up. Now, in that same situation you are in, I would use Minkin for Refresh +10 (in case you didn't know what it does) and INT+50 (still, in case you didn't know) to do the exact same thing as your 3 Regain Atmas do. Now, I have 2 more atma selections to choose from. Beyond and Ultimate are usually my choice in the matter, but sometimes I'll mix it up and go with Gales instead of Beyond. This is all assuming the same situations (party/alliance, both your and my jobs are to do hate free damage, you are in your melee setup while I'm in my normal setup, but you can't melee because the mob's TP gain would be too great). Now, you are stuck at 2 useless atmas while I have more MP to spare and have atmas that actually help with the damage output. Merited Blood Pacts means that I don't need 300% TP to do max damage either.

Lets assume situation 2. You are allowed to melee now. So is your avatar. Will your added damage benefit the party more when the mob has increased the TP usage even more? Makes procing a lot harder for one, also, depending on the mob, increases the hate-erasing moves from most junk mobs. But then again, I would come as WAR for those situations, so I guess that is a moot point.

Situation 3. Soloing. You have your 3 regain atmas, but guess what, your avatar doesn't survive that long. I have Ducal Guard, so my avatar can last forever. Minkin also means I won't run out of mp either, so I can choose either Ultimate or Beyond/Gales or Mounted Champion if I choose. Either of those atmas increase the killspeed, but I still am able to kill the NM I'm soloing. You can't, because you need all 3 Regain atmas to keep your avatars out thanks to your lack of perp gear, also when your avatar dies, guess what, you are screwed because you have too much hate thanks to the wiffing of your staff.

And you still state that I am scraping the bottom of the FFXI experience? Because I know how to do my job, and I can come as a much better job when the situation calls for it? Because I contribute more the the party than you can ever do? Because I can solo more and harder NMs than you can ever dream about?

On a side note: Have you completed my challenge yet? Do you even remember it?

[Dallas]

Raz, 9 out of 10 mobs are trash mobs. I know your staff skill is gimp and you use a gimp staff, but do you really zombie trash mobs?

[Korpg]

Raz, your inabilities are your problem. You and Korpg seem to be the only SMN who get their butts kicked by normal mobs.

What is the hardest mob you have soloed? Seriously, answer that.

[Dallas]

I don't get what you are saying. Not only did you fail to insult me, but you also admitted that not even you would melee on certain mobs, even though the whole basis of your argument is to melee?

No Korpg. I never said that SMN could melee anything that a WAR could not melee. I said the opposite. You just can't read. That is all.

[Korpg]

No Korpg. I never said that SMN could melee anything that a WAR could not melee. I said the opposite. You just can't read. That is all.

What is your point then?

[Tannlore]

The vision is an interesting thing and frankly that part that you guys are gripping to it just to prove Dallas wrong is frankly frightening. Summoning an avatar and standing there pretty and watching between timers? Does that really sound like fun to you? Please, give me a more active role SE. Give me abilities/spells to use on my avatars, give me more things to do that just "sit back and enjoy the show".

What useless dribble. Frankly I'll never "sit back and enjoy the show" ever.... EVER on smn. The only time I do that is when I'm a corpse on the ground without reraise. There's always something to do, be it swing my staff on the mob's head, monitor my timers, or cure my companions. The heck is this mentality and you guys are embracing this as the sure fire way to go? Just to prove Dallas wrong?

What happened to the summoners while I was gone for a year?


While I think that Dallas' heads on melee only strategy isn't the exact way to go, the middle ground between him and standing back surely is. I do take my staff out and melee next to my avatar and it certainly does help.

Interesting that you guys ignored this part:

Example Adjustments
A new ability that expends an additional amount of MP to shorten the recast time for blood pacts.


If nothing else, it means that using a staff like my Hvergelmir will mean more meleeing for more mp for shorting BPs for more damage/wards. One could postulate on a number of ways this works. Will it be an ability you use once with a cooldown?


Will it be a "mode" you activate like favor that you can stay in for a while?
Example: You blood pact, and then you could immediately issue a new one right away for a GREATLY increased cost that goes down as your timer ticks towards the end of what would be your normal BP timer (45 seconds assuming you geared it) until it cost normal mp. OR that just allows you to toss off another BP maybe every 10 seconds for that greatly increased cost?

If this is the case, Dallas could have quite an important point here. What do I care if I blow my entire load of MP in a few BPs if I can get all of it back with a sekkanoki WS or a few back-to-back normal Myrky? Ponder this for a moment if you will. While contrary to the "vision" SE stated, the very mention of this ability + the Emp. weapon they gave us directly contradict this.

There are far too many factors still to deal with before you can start tossing SE's vision at anyone as a weapon or a defense. Until they give more update details I would hold back slinging any more arrows and stones and wait to see what these new abilities and what Atomos and Cait Sith will be. They could be two MP free avatars we get to "sit back and watch" do things. Would it be tragic... if we summoned them out and couldn't pull our staves out or cast any spells with them summoned? Only BP and and use JA?

This would fall right inline with that vision yes? Careful what you wish for.

[Razushu]

Raz, 9 out of 10 mobs are trash mobs. I know your staff skill is gimp and you use a gimp staff, but do you really zombie trash mobs?

No but I'm sure you do.

[Razushu]

The vision is an interesting thing and frankly that part that you guys are gripping to it just to prove Dallas wrong is frankly frightening. Summoning an avatar and standing there pretty and watching between timers? Does that really sound like fun to you? Please, give me a more active role SE. Give me abilities/spells to use on my avatars, give me more things to do that just "sit back and enjoy the show".

What useless dribble. Frankly I'll never "sit back and enjoy the show" ever.... EVER on smn. The only time I do that is when I'm a corpse on the ground without reraise. There's always something to do, be it swing my staff on the mob's head, monitor my timers, or cure my companions. The heck is this mentality and you guys are embracing this as the sure fire way to go? Just to prove Dallas wrong?

This is an ongoing discussion, my standpiont for those late to the game is... that SMN like every other job can be geared to melee and can do it occaisionally(although SMN is the weakest at it). The thing about Dallas is he is arrogant, ignorant and incompetant, so it's amusing to tear him down and point and laugh etc.

What happened to the summoners while I was gone for a year?

Nothing happened to me I've been like this since '08

While I think that Dallas' heads on melee only strategy isn't the exact way to go, the middle ground between him and standing back surely is. I do take my staff out and melee next to my avatar and it certainly does help.

On some mobs yeah sure go for it, Dallas however flip flops between it's the only way to play SMN ever and "I can't melee everything".

Interesting that you guys ignored this part:

Example Adjustments
A new ability that expends an additional amount of MP to shorten the recast time for blood pacts.


If nothing else, it means that using a staff like my Hvergelmir will mean more meleeing for more mp for shorting BPs for more damage/wards. One could postulate on a number of ways this works. Will it be an ability you use once with a cooldown?

It's not being ignored, it's being discussed elsewhere. No one is hurting for MP at all right now, only thing it means is I'm going to have to quit procrastinating on leveling /RDM and +2ing my AF3 and problem solved.

Will it be a "mode" you activate like favor that you can stay in for a while?
Example: You blood pact, and then you could immediately issue a new one right away for a GREATLY increased cost that goes down as your timer ticks towards the end of what would be your normal BP timer (45 seconds assuming you geared it) until it cost normal mp. OR that just allows you to toss off another BP maybe every 10 seconds for that greatly increased cost?

I'm hoping it's a mode like Favor that adds to BP cost and -delay while active.

If this is the case, Dallas could have quite an important point here. What do I care if I blow my entire load of MP in a few BPs if I can get all of it back with a sekkanoki WS or a few back-to-back normal Myrky? Ponder this for a moment if you will. While contrary to the "vision" SE stated, the very mention of this ability + the Emp. weapon they gave us directly contradict this.

Nah like I said MP is a non-issue atm for pretty much everyone. +2 AF3 head and finish WotG I get another +2 mp per tick and /RDM gives an extra 100MP a minute over /sch so SMN will still be good for MP unless this cost is ridiculous, and still keeps in line with SE's vision of SMN.

There are far too many factors still to deal with before you can start tossing SE's vision at anyone as a weapon or a defense. Until they give more update details I would hold back slinging any more arrows and stones and wait to see what these new abilities and what Atomos and Cait Sith will be. They could be two MP free avatars we get to "sit back and watch" do things. Would it be tragic... if we summoned them out and couldn't pull our staves out or cast any spells with them summoned? Only BP and and use JA?

This would fall right inline with that vision yes? Careful what you wish for.

I wouldn't call it tragic lol, and my quoting of the vision is more to do with a discussion woth the OP of this thread who claimed SMN = DRK, BLU, DRG

[Malamasala]

Having read their vision, I'm suddenly more worried than usual.

They honestly thought it would be a good idea to make a job where you replace your own melee and 5+ abilities, with a pet with a single ability?

I'd agree, if they gave us split timers. Then I'd view the job as "Stand back, let the avatar use plenty of abilities like a normal job". Well, I'd get bored and melee anyway, but at least I'd understand SE. As it is now, it is like trying to listen to a childs goo-goo-gaa-gaa and try and understand.

[Dallas]

Mala, you need to assume that Myrkr was not an accident. Sure, our new and improved WS deals no damage, but it gives a truckload of MP that allows you to "sit back and enjoy the show." It's a much different view from the top of the food chain.

I hold back. Why? Because my avatar can't keep up. I use a bunch of -enmity to allow my avatar a 60% damage discrepancy. What happens if I can spend more MP to increase my avatar's damage by 60%? I stop holding back and my MP goes up even more.

Everyone hates BP timers, but almost no one values MP management. SE released an emp staff that is 5-7x more powerful than Convert, and yet the loudest voice in these forums argues that MP has no value anymore. I proposed a solution: make SMN more powerful, but make it cost so much mp that only the best SMN can ever achieve it. It's almost like SE reads these forums.

I can't lose. I applaud SE.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post106169