Why is Summoner the most ignored, misunderstood and broken job?

[RAIST]

1. It does happen when you have damage mitigation they don't have

2. the point is per hit you are the same or maybe higher, so if one is tickling the mob, then so is the other.

3. no, it goes against the argument that you are tickling the mob, aimed at countering the arguments trying to trivialize the damage output of a SMN meleeing

4. and yes, you can pull hate while being up front quite easily in fact. Every manuever, cure, status removal, WS and the fact you are smacking them around generates hate. It can and does happen. I can do it on BLM and WHM too. Just because you are swinging a weapon doesn't mean you cant perform your other duties as well, which leads to #5

5. you can hit macros and select members just as easily up front as in back. It can actually work better to be down front with your avatar out for more timely AOE buffing and such. I've done this a lot for a long time, it all comes down to your playing style and being used to it I guess.

6. If you understand melee so well, then why do you seem to be presenting the idea that your skill on your weapon has little to do with your effectiveness with that weapon? It isn't whether you understand melee...it is more that you are comparing effectiveness of a weapon which is nerfed when you are using it against those who are capped and may be geared more appropriately to further improve efficiency with that weapon.

[Razushu]

1. It does happen when you have damage mitigation they don't have

No job has less damage mitigation than SMN, and what we do have is AoE so if you're getting it so is everyone in range is too

2. the point is per hit you are the same or maybe higher, so if one is tickling the mob, then so is the other.

So for hit you're the same as a weapon that has half the delay as yours and is dual wielded that NIN will still leave you in the dust, unless they're gimper than a one legged mule.

3. no, it goes against the argument that you are tickling the mob, aimed at countering the arguments trying to trivialize the damage output of a SMN meleeing

My argument is that if you are doing a fraction of the damage of a DD you are for all intents and purposes tickling the mob

4. and yes, you can pull hate while being up front quite easily in fact. Every manuever, cure, status removal, WS and the fact you are smacking them around generates hate. It can and does happen. I can do it on BLM and WHM too. Just because you are swinging a weapon doesn't mean you cant perform your other duties as well, which leads to #5

It doesn't mean you can't but it will definitely lower the effectiveness, even if it's just you pull hate and die when the party needs heavy cures.

5. you can hit macros and select members just as easily up front as in back. It can actually work better to be down front with your avatar out for more timely AOE buffing and such. I've done this a lot for a long time, it all comes down to your playing style and being used to it I guess.

Yeah to the macros. No to the increased effectiveness. If it was even jsut as easy to support from the front there'd be no such thing as a backline(aside from AoE etc.). It's just as easy to time buffs back line if not easier.

6. If you understand melee so well, then why do you seem to be presenting the idea that your skill on your weapon has little to do with your effectiveness with that weapon? It isn't whether you understand melee...it is more that you are comparing effectiveness of a weapon which is nerfed when you are using it against those who are capped and may be geared more appropriately to further improve efficiency with that weapon.

I'm not saying my "staff weapon skill" has no effect on the effectiveness of the melee, I'm saying that there is absolutely no need for me to skill it up further to understand how melee works, I've used it as SMN and I've been able to more than well play my brother's SAM and DRG without playing or leveling the job before.

[RAIST]

No...not all your buffs that mitigate damage are AOE. You can maintain Blink, and SS on yourself more consistently than you can party wide. If you are /RDM, phalanx and bars are only for you. There is also atma selection in the case of abyssea. Likewise, there are gear selections specific to yourself and not others--I once got a tell asking how I was intimidating a mob on SMN...it was because of a piece of gear.

If you are staying out of the wide AOE range of an NM or something, you may be out of range to even call your BP Wards and have to run in first to do it...whereas if you are down there already, you just call it. So calling SMN buffs from backline versus frontline CAN be considerably different in some scenarios. Also, being down there when you see a -ga cued up, when you quickly hit a bar that automatically focuses on yourself you KNOW it is going to hit the full front line, versus having to to worry about positioning if your back line is on the edge of casting. Same goes for curing from the backline--DD's sometimes get knocked back or otherwise can get positioned just out of your casting range and you have to adjust a lot. So, again...being closer to the action can prove beneficial in some cases. The point is, there are pros and cons to both scenarios--but if you are able to manage it effectively, why can't you do it? Because people who don't understand it say you can't?

And as for this whole issue of tickling a mob...your statments here can just as easily be used to say a NIN should /mage and sit in the back to use ranged, ninjutsu, and support magic from subjob, or PLD should be a backline job, or BST, or PUP--essentially all you are saying is that any job that can't keep up with jobs x y z should be relegated to backline utility, where the value of x y z can change depending on what someone personally thinks are the top 3 DD jobs.

Again with this whole "understanding how melee works"--I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the actual NUMBERS at play--the difference in the ACTUAL RESULTS between two different levels of proficiency and the impact it may have on playstyle. I can't rightfully go into the RNG forums and complain about issues with 90 RNG because my RNG was retired at 51, all I can properly do is complain about my experiences up to level 51. Even though my Archery is at 250, and I've used SAM/RNG...I can't even talk accurately about RNG at a comparable level for my archery skill simply because I haven't played RNG past level 51, and have only used it as a subjob since I retired it at 51 several years ago. Likewise, someone with level 74 staff skill doesn't have much to stand on for arguing about how staff performs at level 90 staff skill--they can only talk from experience about how it performs at that 74 level. I haven't experienced playing at higher than a level 51 RNG, you haven't experienced swinging with a 335+ staff skill--people can't really put a lot of stock in what either of us have to say on anything beyond our own experiences.

[Razushu]

No...not all your buffs that mitigate damage are AOE. You can maintain Blink, and SS on yourself more consistently than you can party wide. If you are /RDM, phalanx and bars are only for you. There is also atma selection in the case of abyssea. Likewise, there are gear selections specific to yourself and not others--I once got a tell asking how I was intimidating a mob on SMN...it was because of a piece of gear.

If you're going to need Bars and Phalanx etc. why would you opt for the self target subjob? Also unless you stack enhancing gear you're Phalanx will be weaker than SMNs native AoE phalanx same with SS and blink is always weaker than Aerial armor. If I'm going to need SS i'll try to give the whole party it just in case(accession/earthen ward), same with any defensive buff. This play style seems like you've gone out of your way to not benefit the party with anything but your melee in this scenario. Also it Bars etc. are needed the WHM and RDM should have these covered on them anyway, theres no way a SMN should be surviving anything that kills a melee.

If you are staying out of the wide AOE range of an NM or something, you may be out of range to even call your BP Wards and have to run in first to do it...whereas if you are down there already, you just call it. So calling SMN buffs from backline versus frontline CAN be considerably different in some scenarios. Also, being down there when you see a -ga cued up, when you quickly hit a bar that automatically focuses on yourself you KNOW it is going to hit the full front line, versus having to to worry about positioning if your back line is on the edge of casting. Same goes for curing from the backline--DD's sometimes get knocked back or otherwise can get positioned just out of your casting range and you have to adjust a lot. So, again...being closer to the action can prove beneficial in some cases. The point is, there are pros and cons to both scenarios--but if you are able to manage it effectively, why can't you do it? Because people who don't understand it say you can't?

No they can't any SMN worth wearing the Horn should know how to time their summonings/ buffs personally if I'm cycling buffs i call new avatar at ~15 seconds left on BP timer and my avatr is in position with time to spare. again any good backline player will know the AoE range and there's nothing stopping us from hitting a similar macro. Knock back is usually a non-issue, if theres knockback have the melees stay on the same side of the mob as the mages so they're knocked back .... into the mages. No the problem is people understand it and know the game and don't say you can't just that you shouldn't on anything powerful/important.

And as for this whole issue of tickling a mob...your statments here can just as easily be used to say a NIN should /mage and sit in the back to use ranged, ninjutsu, and support magic from subjob, or PLD should be a backline job, or BST, or PUP--essentially all you are saying is that any job that can't keep up with jobs x y z should be relegated to backline utility, where the value of x y z can change depending on what someone personally thinks are the top 3 DD jobs.

If you're only matching a 1 hander(that's Dual wielding) strike for main hand strike you're not worth the risk as a frontliner. PLD, BST and PUP all have much more reason to be frontline than SMN, they are good DD or tanks. No I'm not saying any job that can't keep up with the top jobs shouldn't melee, just the ones the top tier leave in the dust.

Again with this whole "understanding how melee works"--I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the actual NUMBERS at play--the difference in the ACTUAL RESULTS between two different levels of proficiency and the impact it may have on playstyle. I can't rightfully go into the RNG forums and complain about issues with 90 RNG because my RNG was retired at 51, all I can properly do is complain about my experiences up to level 51. Even though my Archery is at 250, and I've used SAM/RNG...I can't even talk accurately about RNG at a comparable level for my archery skill simply because I haven't played RNG past level 51, and have only used it as a subjob since I retired it at 51 several years ago. Likewise, someone with level 74 staff skill doesn't have much to stand on for arguing about how staff performs at level 90 staff skill--they can only talk from experience about how it performs at that 74 level. I haven't experienced playing at higher than a level 51 RNG, you haven't experienced swinging with a 335+ staff skill--people can't really put a lot of stock in what either of us have to say on anything beyond our own experiences.

1st off I'm a 90 SMN and have meleed on mobs before so the RNG comparison is off. I still know how to melee on a job my skill is high enough and was when i was in the 70s to melee and understand the mechanics behind it the onlt difference with the lower skill is ACC and ATK. You've yet to provide one differnce in meleeing at 74 cap and meleeing at 90 cap change how it would be played. I havent swung the staff at 90 cap but I've swung it capped at 74 at level 75 or does those 5 skill points completely change it too?

[RAIST]

Again, as already mentioned it's all situational, and possibilties exist on both your side and my side of the argument as to what goes on on the front line. Just because I mention keeping personal buffs up for myself doesn't mean I'm not keeping them up for the party--but when your BP timer only allows you to keep two buffs up reliably for the party, and you can almost instantly renew a worn buff on yourself that a mob eats while your BP timer is still counting down, it simply provides greater protection for you in that short window. And some people avoid /WHM like the plague so they can get the extra refresh from /RDM, so they simply won't have access to AOE buffs from subjob.

No matter what you say, the simple fact remains that you in particular are not likely on equal footing with others who actively do get up front and personal with their tougher targets often simply because for various reasons you yourself haven't been interested in it and haven't taken the steps to prepare for things that others probably have. Again, you haven't had the same experience as them because you are not setup for it like they are, so you can't speak on the matter on the same level as them.

And yes, 90 points of skill DOES make a difference at 90. On your way to 90, your skill per level accelerates to reach a higher increase per level then your target's defense does, helping to close that gap and increasing your pDIF values slightly. Post 80, you're increasing at the same rate per level as the A ranked skills, putting you at a faster pace then the rate defense increases per level for most of your general targets. This ultimately puts you at at least a 10 point higher differential at 90 on targets with the same level difference then you had with the same level difference at 74. At 90, A ranked weapons can hit the 2.2 pDIF mod cap against most of the general targets you would be beating up on as a SMN without doing anything special to their gear setups. Your skill is only 19 below that at 90, so can get close to a 2.0 mod at that point on a large portion of your targets. That is why it is not that uncommon to see staves hit for close to 200 damage at 90. So yes, capping your skill makes a difference.

You completely missed the point of my mentioning my RNG. I don't have a 90 RNG with capped skill, so I can't rightfully go in there and complain about what a 90 RNG faces. I can only complain about what a 51 RNG faces, as that is the only level at which I have skills capped out for RNG. I have reached 89 cap for a bow on NIN, and have actively used it on NIN. That doesn't in any way qualify me to talk about a RNG's experience with a bow at their 71 caps because I haven't experienced it the same way that RNG would--I've only used it on other jobs with their native skill up to 250 or with a RNG subjob. The point is I am not qualified to debate them on their ranged issues as I can in no way put myself in the same position to experience those same issues. If I were able to do so, I could discuss various things I may have tried to overcome the issues and such, or complained that I haven't found a way to overcome the issues....but since I can in no way experience those same issues, people can't put much stock in anything I would have to say on those issues. Likewise, I do have a 90 BST with capped skills--but I rarely play it, so I generally try to stay out of the BST debates unless it is indeed something I've experienced first hand.

In short, because of the changes in how your skills scale faster now against how your target's skills scale, meleeing at 74 with capped skills against even match is different than capped level 90 skills against an even match. Level 90 melee with level 74 skill is not level 90 melee with capped skill. Therefore, your particular experience with melee at 90 would not be the same as a level 90 would experience with capped skill. This has not only happend with just offense either--I certainly am able take more hits now than I used too with the same behavior at lower levels against mobs in the same level differences. It all comes together in the end and simply has gotten considerably better in comparison when you are fighting mobs with the same level differences now.

[Razushu]

Again, as already mentioned it's all situational, and possibilties exist on both your side and my side of the argument as to what goes on on the front line. Just because I mention keeping personal buffs up for myself doesn't mean I'm not keeping them up for the party--but when your BP timer only allows you to keep two buffs up reliably for the party, and you can almost instantly renew a worn buff on yourself that a mob eats while your BP timer is still counting down, it simply provides greater protection for you in that short window. And some people avoid /WHM like the plague so they can get the extra refresh from /RDM, so they simply won't have access to AOE buffs from subjob.

No matter what you say, the simple fact remains that you in particular are not likely on equal footing with others who actively do get up front and personal with their tougher targets often simply because for various reasons you yourself haven't been interested in it and haven't taken the steps to prepare for things that others probably have. Again, you haven't had the same experience as them because you are not setup for it like they are, so you can't speak on the matter on the same level as them.

And yes, 90 points of skill DOES make a difference at 90. On your way to 90, your skill per level accelerates to reach a higher increase per level then your target's defense does, helping to close that gap and increasing your pDIF values slightly. Post 80, you're increasing at the same rate per level as the A ranked skills, putting you at a faster pace then the rate defense increases per level for most of your general targets. This ultimately puts you at at least a 10 point higher differential at 90 on targets with the same level difference then you had with the same level difference at 74. At 90, A ranked weapons can hit the 2.2 pDIF mod cap against most of the general targets you would be beating up on as a SMN without doing anything special to their gear setups. Your skill is only 19 below that at 90, so can get close to a 2.0 mod at that point on a large portion of your targets. That is why it is not that uncommon to see staves hit for close to 200 damage at 90. So yes, capping your skill makes a difference.

You completely missed the point of my mentioning my RNG. I don't have a 90 RNG with capped skill, so I can't rightfully go in there and complain about what a 90 RNG faces. I can only complain about what a 51 RNG faces, as that is the only level at which I have skills capped out for RNG. I have reached 89 cap for a bow on NIN, and have actively used it on NIN. That doesn't in any way qualify me to talk about a RNG's experience with a bow at their 71 caps because I haven't experienced it the same way that RNG would--I've only used it on other jobs with their native skill up to 250 or with a RNG subjob. The point is I am not qualified to debate them on their ranged issues as I can in no way put myself in the same position to experience those same issues. If I were able to do so, I could discuss various things I may have tried to overcome the issues and such, or complained that I haven't found a way to overcome the issues....but since I can in no way experience those same issues, people can't put much stock in anything I would have to say on those issues. Likewise, I do have a 90 BST with capped skills--but I rarely play it, so I generally try to stay out of the BST debates unless it is indeed something I've experienced first hand.

In short, because of the changes in how your skills scale faster now against how your target's skills scale, meleeing at 74 with capped skills against even match is different than capped level 90 skills against an even match. Level 90 melee with level 74 skill is not level 90 melee with capped skill. Therefore, your particular experience with melee at 90 would not be the same as a level 90 would experience with capped skill. This has not only happend with just offense either--I certainly am able take more hits now than I used too with the same behavior at lower levels against mobs in the same level differences. It all comes together in the end and simply has gotten considerably better in comparison when you are fighting mobs with the same level differences now.

I think we're disagreeing while agreeing here, I said that SMN melee can be used situationally lol.

even my 30s base duration buffs now last 3+ minutes thats time enough for a skiled SMN to fulltime 4 buffs.

I know that the damage increases with extra skill etc. my point is if i knew how to melee at 75 I'll still know how it works at 90 cap except it'd be easier. I didn't miss your point it's just not really applicable here I'm a 90 SMN and I have been close to capped skill before and I've meleed in this state so I know how melee works on SMN. Just because the effect is slightly different doesn't mean the practise would be any different.

I've noticed no real change in the damage I can take aside from my capped SS on /sch. Mobs seem to hit just as hard as before, If not harder. I got nuked for over 1k twice in Beacedine [s] by EPs, I was prety damn surprised.

[Dallas]

SMN is rank #10 this year. You are welcome.

[Neonii]

No...not all your buffs that mitigate damage are AOE. You can maintain Blink, and SS on yourself more consistently than you can party wide. If you are /RDM, phalanx and bars are only for you. There is also atma selection in the case of abyssea. Likewise, there are gear selections specific to yourself and not others--I once got a tell asking how I was intimidating a mob on SMN...it was because of a piece of gear.

If you are staying out of the wide AOE range of an NM or something, you may be out of range to even call your BP Wards and have to run in first to do it...whereas if you are down there already, you just call it. So calling SMN buffs from backline versus frontline CAN be considerably different in some scenarios. Also, being down there when you see a -ga cued up, when you quickly hit a bar that automatically focuses on yourself you KNOW it is going to hit the full front line, versus having to to worry about positioning if your back line is on the edge of casting. Same goes for curing from the backline--DD's sometimes get knocked back or otherwise can get positioned just out of your casting range and you have to adjust a lot. So, again...being closer to the action can prove beneficial in some cases. The point is, there are pros and cons to both scenarios--but if you are able to manage it effectively, why can't you do it? Because people who don't understand it say you can't?

And as for this whole issue of tickling a mob...your statments here can just as easily be used to say a NIN should /mage and sit in the back to use ranged, ninjutsu, and support magic from subjob, or PLD should be a backline job, or BST, or PUP--essentially all you are saying is that any job that can't keep up with jobs x y z should be relegated to backline utility, where the value of x y z can change depending on what someone personally thinks are the top 3 DD jobs.

Again with this whole "understanding how melee works"--I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the actual NUMBERS at play--the difference in the ACTUAL RESULTS between two different levels of proficiency and the impact it may have on playstyle. I can't rightfully go into the RNG forums and complain about issues with 90 RNG because my RNG was retired at 51, all I can properly do is complain about my experiences up to level 51. Even though my Archery is at 250, and I've used SAM/RNG...I can't even talk accurately about RNG at a comparable level for my archery skill simply because I haven't played RNG past level 51, and have only used it as a subjob since I retired it at 51 several years ago. Likewise, someone with level 74 staff skill doesn't have much to stand on for arguing about how staff performs at level 90 staff skill--they can only talk from experience about how it performs at that 74 level. I haven't experienced playing at higher than a level 51 RNG, you haven't experienced swinging with a 335+ staff skill--people can't really put a lot of stock in what either of us have to say on anything beyond our own experiences.

Have you posted your gear set up ? I would not mind taking a peek.

[Razushu]

SMN is rank #10 this year. You are welcome.

that has absolutely, utterly, positively nothing to do with you. This has to do with people who leveled the job and gladly 90+% will have never encountered you, or it's safe to say the job would be dead in the eyes of the player base

[Dallas]

You can argue that BST and SMN jumped 6 spots for any reason you like, but the answer is "soloing in Abyssea" which requires Ducal Guard. No one was looking at -pdt pet builds but me.