Why is Summoner the most ignored, misunderstood and broken job?

[Arciel]

agreed. SMN is hardly a joke job in groups. If may only appear this way because most strats prefer to avoid incorporating SMN into the strat because of its biggest weakness - speed.

SMN can do most anything with proper consideration of strategy, but it can be hella slow - and most players would want to maximize their time in game and get things done faster. They thus don't apply SMN into the mix unless they have to.
However, as slow as it may be, the SMN approach can also end up being the safest, which is why you have all sorts of strategies that utilize SMN for its safety and success rate as mentioned above.

as such, if anything were to really improve or 'fix' SMN from its current state into greater playability, it'd have everything to do with the BP timer, because its really the only thing that is holding us back.

my suggestions:

1) reduce the default BP recast. Base of 45s would probably be a good enough adjustment, if we consider that BP reduction gear can lower this (if we use the existing numeric value cap) to 30s.
For greater effect, could even do with a base of 30s, with gear able to lower this to 15s. This would move SMN damage speed into a totally different range, which is actually fine since it won't be sustainable with limited MP pools.

OR

2) have BP recast vary according to the BP being used.
They could set this as a static value (like say Claw on Garuda giving BP: Rage a 10s recast if its used, but P.Claws giving a 45s recast) - this system is already used for Waltzes.
OR they could set this as a dynamic value based on the relative level that the BP is obtained and the current level of the player, especially for Rage BPs. Like say every 5 levels above a BP you are gives you a reduction of 5 seconds from the BP recast until you hit a base of 5seconds. (so in such a case, lv70 BP would be 40s for Lv90, 35 seconds for Lv95, before taking into account gear). Astral Flow BPs could always be capped at maximum timer to prevent abuse (need MP anyway).

OR

3) a mixture of both. Have base timer at like 45s, implement dynamic recast timers - allow players to be able to mix up using lower damage BPs more frequently or higher damage ones less frequently. Either way would be faster than it already is and it'd be up to the SMN to manage his own MP before it runs out.
Dynamic recast timers doesn't have to affect Ward BPs because the timers on those are actually fine as is, and effectiveness of ward pacts doesn't follow the same usability relationship that rage BPs have in proportion to level.

..this way it doesn't exactly change what we can do, because what we can do is fine. but how fast we can do it would be vastly improved.

[Malamasala]

2) have BP recast vary according to the BP being used.

I've been kind of into this before, since it, with good numbers, would mean things like use healing ruby, wait 10 seconds on recast, then use meteor, wait 30 seconds, swap to Garuda and do predator claws and wait 45 seconds etc.

I think this is the only suggestion that keeps a global timer that could work. In all other cases it will just be a direct DD boost, and that is like saying "All jobs needs to do 9999 damage before balance is achieved". I prefer SMN being weaker, but it should be more versatile with its pact selection.

Dynamic recast timers doesn't have to affect Ward BPs because the timers on those are actually fine as is, and effectiveness of ward pacts doesn't follow the same usability relationship that rage BPs have in proportion to level.

Obviously you never use dispel or slowga. Those are two pacts that due to their long global recast are never used. Wards would also need specialized recasts. Like dispel really should be 5 seconds recast on Fenrir.

I'm sure the wards you think are fine, are the ones that are fine and you are using. Hastega, Earthen Armor and such. But we do have plenty pacts we don't use just because they aren't fine.

[Malamasala]

Speaking of recasts on global timers though, I've always wondered why SE gave only SMN a global spell timer. COR came close with a global roll timer and a global quick draw timer. But paying 0 MP to buff and only being able to put up 2 buffs it didn't really matter so much with having a global recast on it. Quick Draw would be the odd one, considering NIN can elemental wheel rotate for gil, but CORs can't.

In a similar fashion I would have almost expected BLU to have global recasts also. You learn some pretty strong moves, and you are a melee job, and yet they got the spells on separate timers. If you change spells though, I hear you have a long cool down on all of them.

But for example, why can BLU spam head butt for stun, but SMN can't spam Ramuh's low level shock strike? The only difference is hate to pet or hate to BLU. So one has to assume the reason we have global recast is because hate goes to the pets.... but can you really claim it such a huge advantage to get hate for 75 damage to the avatar for shock strike, that it warrants a 60 sec global recast?

If you ask me personally, global recasts don't even need to exist until like level 50+ when one in theory could spam 400 damage pacts. And even if you give those moderate recast (maybe 20 sec?) it wouldn't be all that massive damage hate free anyway.

As far as I can see, the only reason global recast even exists, is that SE thought it was a funny gimmick that would be fresh and new to the game. If only they had taken a moment to consider if it would be fun playing with it.

[Arciel]

Obviously you never use dispel or slowga. Those are two pacts that due to their long global recast are never used. Wards would also need specialized recasts. Like dispel really should be 5 seconds recast on Fenrir.

I'm sure the wards you think are fine, are the ones that are fine and you are using. Hastega, Earthen Armor and such. But we do have plenty pacts we don't use just because they aren't fine.

And this is obvious how?

A lot more ward BPs are fine on the current timer than they aren't. I just mentioned they probably don't need tweaking because trying to figure out suitable recasts on them wasn't really worth the time hypothesizing just for a suggestion.
5 second recast on Fenrir's Roar would be useful yes, but 5 second recast on Healing Ruby 1 is pretty broken. Also there are other prevailing reasons than global recasts that they aren't being used.
As a simple yardstick ward debuffs could probably use timer reductions, ward buffs don't need it.

But its just a suggestion anyway, no need to get your panties in a twist about it.

..as for global timers, SMN isn't the only job stuck with global timers, but is the only one to mainly rely on 2 of them.
COR is next in line, PUP mage automatons suffer the same fate, DNC have a bunch of global timers that they are made to work with...

but mainly, SMNs original single global timer was the result of bad design and a relic of a past where the devs knew almost absolutely nothing about MMORPG game balance - this wasn't too long ago from when BST Charm was 5minutes (and crits could uncharm pets), Astral Flow lasted like 30s and didn't reduce perp to 0, the standard set of avatars couldn't be obtained unless you had a lv50+ job, avatar acc/m.acc was worthless, etc.

Can't say the job hasn't come a long way since, but in terms of speed its definitely fallen behind even further now

[Fyreus]

Know what we could use? +stats transfer to pets.

Wyverns have it and it wouldn't be hard to code in (it's already there lol) and would allow a smn to further enhance the way avatars work no matter what they are doing. It makes use of many things like some haste, mab, acc, str and such stats you can't get on certain avatars. If you are smart or use common sense then you benefit from this or suffer if you want to really equip terrible stuff. That and syphoon avatar mp since it does absolutely nothing in game.

Who in the world would really hate stat transfers?

[Fyreus]

When I talk damage, I'm talking about every action that results in reducing the HP of the mob. Nothing at all vague about that. There are 4 sources of damage: avatar melee, avatar BPs, avatar buffs, SMN melee. If you don't melee with SMN, put a big 0 there. If you think your avatar is a weak BLM, put a big 0 on both avatar melee and buffs. Your choices make your damage tiny and insignificant.

I understand you try your hardest to justify obtaining an emperyean and i won't knock you for that, but you are fighting 'safe' mobs or things that won't kick a party's butt. Fact. I'm talking about the last few mobs left that require effort even in a small man. What exactly are you fighting anyway? Show me some pics

[Airget]

I think if people wanted drastic changes to SMN they might have to accept other tweaks to the job. Compared to other pet jobs excluding BST to a point they have a limitless amount of drones they can toss at a mob without fear of death for the most part. In group settings they provide a safe way to dish out heavy damage without putting their own life on the line. With BST they have the same instance granted the recast timer on call beast.

I think that if people wanted a big change to SMN that would make them more diverse and useable SE would have to add a "summoner fatigue" that prevented them for summoning an avatar for a certain amount of time based on certain aspects. Before you huff and puff over this tweak basically what I"m getting at is summoner as it stands is a formidable tool with the ability to dish out a decent amount of damage with little hassle, only a BP recast timer which can be lowered.

However with this "summoner fatigue" in mind the idea would be to add a range of abilities that could be used to act as more of a support class. If anything perhaps give the option through a JA called "Astral Focus" which allows the user to be more attune with the next summoned avatar however they will be unable to call another avatar for 10 minutes. While "Astral Focus" is in effect the perp cost starts at 0 however they do not have any of their BP accessed for use. Instead the SMN uses Rituals to enhance the avatar as well as start the perp cost timer.
Say you have Garuda out with Astral Focus, you would gain access to the following magic spells:
"Flow of Wind" Haste aura. (can be cast from 1-6 times based on smn skill) 1/3/5/7/9/11 20 MP +1 perp per cast
"Wind Barrier" Wind resist aura (can cast 1-6 times) 15/30/45/60/75/100 20 mp +1 perp
"Wind Slicer" aura (deal extra dmg to enemies weak to wind element) 50 mp +5 perp
"Swift Step" AGI aura (cast 1-6 times) 15 mp +1 perp
"Sway" Evasion aura (cast 1-6 times) 30 mp +2 perp

So basically SMN would be given the option to play the old way or use "Astral Focus" and play more of a support role to the party. However their support would be limited by the fact they can only choose 1 avatar every 10 minutes. It's just even though SMN may have a hard time finding it's proper place, you can't deny that it does serve a purpose in terms of dealing dmg and allowinga method of solo play that other jobs can't do without risk of their life. While it may take them longer to kill foes solo, in a group setting it's pretty much carnage as the mob is ripped to shreds with an unlimited amount of disposable soldiers.

Overall though I wouldn't mind seeing SMN take a more defined role, while it's ability to dish out heavy dmg and absorb dmg taken to extent it would be nice they could serve a bigger purpose then a sacrificial meatshield.

[Razushu]

I think if people wanted drastic changes to SMN they might have to accept other tweaks to the job. Compared to other pet jobs excluding BST to a point they have a limitless amount of drones they can toss at a mob without fear of death for the most part. In group settings they provide a safe way to dish out heavy damage without putting their own life on the line. With BST they have the same instance granted the recast timer on call beast.

I think that if people wanted a big change to SMN that would make them more diverse and useable SE would have to add a "summoner fatigue" that prevented them for summoning an avatar for a certain amount of time based on certain aspects. Before you huff and puff over this tweak basically what I"m getting at is summoner as it stands is a formidable tool with the ability to dish out a decent amount of damage with little hassle, only a BP recast timer which can be lowered.

However with this "summoner fatigue" in mind the idea would be to add a range of abilities that could be used to act as more of a support class. If anything perhaps give the option through a JA called "Astral Focus" which allows the user to be more attune with the next summoned avatar however they will be unable to call another avatar for 10 minutes. While "Astral Focus" is in effect the perp cost starts at 0 however they do not have any of their BP accessed for use. Instead the SMN uses Rituals to enhance the avatar as well as start the perp cost timer.
Say you have Garuda out with Astral Focus, you would gain access to the following magic spells:
"Flow of Wind" Haste aura. (can be cast from 1-6 times based on smn skill) 1/3/5/7/9/11 20 MP +1 perp per cast
"Wind Barrier" Wind resist aura (can cast 1-6 times) 15/30/45/60/75/100 20 mp +1 perp
"Wind Slicer" aura (deal extra dmg to enemies weak to wind element) 50 mp +5 perp
"Swift Step" AGI aura (cast 1-6 times) 15 mp +1 perp
"Sway" Evasion aura (cast 1-6 times) 30 mp +2 perp

So basically SMN would be given the option to play the old way or use "Astral Focus" and play more of a support role to the party. However their support would be limited by the fact they can only choose 1 avatar every 10 minutes. It's just even though SMN may have a hard time finding it's proper place, you can't deny that it does serve a purpose in terms of dealing dmg and allowinga method of solo play that other jobs can't do without risk of their life. While it may take them longer to kill foes solo, in a group setting it's pretty much carnage as the mob is ripped to shreds with an unlimited amount of disposable soldiers.

Overall though I wouldn't mind seeing SMN take a more defined role, while it's ability to dish out heavy dmg and absorb dmg taken to extent it would be nice they could serve a bigger purpose then a sacrificial meatshield.

I like your idea its very good, but 10 minutes without a pet is far too steep for a job that is almost completely dependant to contribute. maybe just have the ability on a 10 minute recast and have it wear upon avatar release/death

I had a similar Idea in another thread, but it was more about boosting avatar damage capablities

Infused Summoning

recast 5 minutes
duration 2hrs or avatar death

Summoner sacrifices health to empower currently summoned

drains 25hp per tick from summoner

grants following bonuses to avatar:
Blood pact Damage +20%
Melee damage +50%
regen +20
Haste +20%

grants Summoner the following bonuses:
Blood Boon +10
BP delay -10 passes cap

[hideka]

my only complaint with summoner is the extremely low durability of avatars in abyssea, how horribly low astral flow damage is in comparison to all other 70+ BPs, and the 15 second cap on BP reduction gear, should be 30 second cap if anything. i have no qualms with my damage output, i do 5-6k every heavenly strike, so im quite happy.

[Razushu]

my only complaint with summoner is the extremely low durability of avatars in abyssea, how horribly low astral flow damage is in comparison to all other 70+ BPs, and the 15 second cap on BP reduction gear, should be 30 second cap if anything. i have no qualms with my damage output, i do 5-6k every heavenly strike, so im quite happy.

Funnily enough on Abyssea I Find Diamond Dust equal to Heavenly Strike. I had great fun killing 10+ Sheep at a time in AbY la theine for shiva magian trial